CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 It deserves to be banned. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Is it really used in anything but Zombies? It is a really good card, but I can't think of any decks that use it right now aside from Zombies, and they aren't really on the competitive scene anymore. (Though I think they could get back up there with Goblin Zombie) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 That's Konami-logic. Just because a card isn't being overused right now doesn't mean that it shouldn't be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Which is perfectly reasonable, assuming everyone has access to the card. Why should we kill a card that can help make another deck type competitive? It isn't being overused, and people that do use it aren't winning the SJC right now. That tells you something about its usefulness in this particular metagame right now. When Yugioh first started, Gene-Warped Warwolf would have been a ridiculously broken card. Now, it isn't played at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Whether it is overused does not matter; what is important is whether or not it rewards unskilled play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Wolf Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 It deserves to be banned. Discuss. NO IT DOESNT! that would ruwen my dark world deck so no NO NO noooooooo rawr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Banning the Chaos monsters ruined Chaos decks. That doesn't mean that banning the Chaos monsters was a bad move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I disagree. Rewarding play that is not necessarily inherently skillful is not a problem unless the card/deck type becomes dominant. In the case of an unskilled deck type, it starts Chaos-esque eras, in which the winner can basically be determined by the flip of a coin. In the case of a card that requires no skill, such as Pot of Greed, it is only banned because it is highly splashable. theme-specific cards and cards with limited uses generally aren't a problem until the theme becomes broken. I'm not saying I'm advocating the creation of cards that don't require more thought and skill, but I don't believe that a card should be ruled upon unless it's a problem. When/if Zombies become big again, I would support restrictions being put on this card. However, that would mean that Zombies would have to find a new draw engine. And wolfberserker, please refrain from posting without thought. It makes you look bad, and just annoys us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Wolf Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 it gives zombie and dark world players card advantage. i don t see why it would be banned ether. it only gives a +1 <.< its not that big and how is this rewarding unskilled players? gadgets give a +1 should they stay simi-limited? dad gives +inf >.< should it be banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Well actually, Crab does believe that Dark Armed Dragon should be banned. At least if my memory serves me correctly. Now, Pot of Greed was a +1. It is banned for a reason. Card of Safe Return is questionable because it merely has to be on the field when you're running a deck that uses many recursion effects. Just plop it down, and get to work. Cards like 'The Beginning of the End' and 'Allure of Darkness' have costs. This isn't just about balancing out the power with a sufficient drawback. It is about forcing you to set your hand/Graveyard/whatever up to make the play. You have to plan ahead and strategize. Card of Safe Return doesn't involve any of this. Never the less, it isn't abused, so I don't believe it should be messed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Max Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 If it makes Certain Decks Viable then why ban it? To be honest i still haven't recovered from the Fact Monster Reborn is Legal again. I've never used COSR myself and it definatly isn't Ban-Worthy. And besides COSR can easily be MST'd Dust Tornadoed or even Twistered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I disagree. Rewarding play that is not necessarily inherently skillful is not a problem unless the card/deck type becomes dominant. It's still a problem; it's just not as urgent a problem as it would be if everyone ran COSR in threes and drew their entire decks in one turn (you know' date=' the way DDT does). In the case of an unskilled deck type, it starts Chaos-esque eras, in which the winner can basically be determined by the flip of a coin. The coin-flip is the extreme example of the reason for which cards should be banned; basically, cards that enable bad players to win more often with less skill deserve the banhammer. In the case of a card that requires no skill' date=' such as Pot of Greed, it is only banned because it is highly splashable. theme-specific cards and cards with limited uses generally aren't a problem until the theme becomes broken.[/quote'] Card of Safe Return isn't theme-specific, though. I'm not saying I'm advocating the creation of cards that don't require more thought and skill' date=' but I don't believe that a card should be ruled upon unless it's a problem. When/if Zombies become big again, I would support restrictions being put on this card. However, that would mean that Zombies would have to find a new draw engine.[/quote'] If one decktype needs to be weakened in order to remove a problem, then that's just how it needs to be. Of course, note that most cards that Zombies use are +0 or better already. And wolfberserker' date=' please refrain from posting without thought. It makes you look bad, and just annoys us.[/quote'] Seconded/ it gives zombie and dark world players card advantage. So did Graceful Charity. i don t see why it would be banned ether. it only gives a +1 <.< its not that big Except it isn't just a +1. and how is this rewarding unskilled players? Simple: it allows mindless overextension' date=' since even if all the monsters get mass removed after overextending, COSR has already replaced every last one. gadgets give a +1 should they stay simi-limited? +1 is not broken, and semi-limiting a series of monsters that are best when run at 2 makes no sense at all. Semi-Limiting them was just idiots at Konami who though Fifth Gadget was actually dangerous, when it was plain that Seventh Gadget was much stronger. dad gives +inf >.< should it be banned? Yes. Dark Armed Dragon should most definitely be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark One Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 If it makes Certain Decks Viable then why ban it? To be honest i still haven't recovered from the Fact Monster Reborn is Legal again. I've never used COSR myself and it definatly isn't Ban-Worthy. And besides COSR can easily be MST'd Dust Tornadoed or even Twistered! That's exactly my argument. However, Crab Helmet's problem with the card is certainly valid. He just has different priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Well actually' date=' Crab does believe that Dark Armed Dragon should be banned. At least if my memory serves me correctly.[/quote'] You are correct. Now' date=' Pot of Greed was a +1. It is banned for a reason.[/quote'] You are correct. Card of Safe Return is questionable because it merely has to be on the field when you're running a deck that uses many recursion effects. Just plop it down' date=' and get to work.[/quote'] Precisely. And "get to work" becomes much easier when the consequences of your actions don't matter as much. Cards like 'The Beginning of the End' and 'Allure of Darkness' have costs. This isn't just about balancing out the power with a sufficient drawback. It is about forcing you to set your hand/Graveyard/whatever up to make the play. You have to plan ahead and strategize. Card of Safe Return doesn't involve any of this. You've rolled a Yahtzee. This is basically COSR's flaw. Never the less' date=' it isn't abused, so I don't believe it should be messed with.[/quote'] It may not be abused at the highest level (although most of the top-tier decks rely on cards that deserve banning, so this is debatable), but Zombies aren't the worst of decktypes, and there are several other decktypes that abuse this too: Dark World and Bushi, for example. If it makes Certain Decks Viable then why ban it? TER and Metamorphosis were a large part of what made Goat Control viable. That doesn't mean that TER didn't deserve to be banned. (Metamorphosis didn't.) To be honest i still haven't recovered from the Fact Monster Reborn is Legal again. It's Konami. What can you expect? I've never used COSR myself and it definatly isn't Ban-Worthy. Whether you used it or not is irrelevant; I never used Butterfly Dagger - Elma. And besides COSR can easily be MST'd Dust Tornadoed or even Twistered! Let's stop pretending that Dust Tornado and Twister are good. Oh, and Snatch Steal is also vulnerable to all of those; that doesn't make it any less banworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HORUS Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Card of Safe Return should be banned because you can use it with Treeborn Frog 4 A ENDLESS SUPLY OF CARDS!J!J!KL!LKL!LOL!!! nah, seriously, I don't think it's nearly good enough to be banned. Only decks that use it effectively are Zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Wolf Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Card of Safe Return should be banned because you can use it with Treeborn Frog 4 A ENDLESS SUPLY OF CARDS!J!J!KL!LKL!LOL!!! i lawd! how isnt it just +1?gateway to dark world (-1), u get a sillva back (+1) u draw (+1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 If it makes Certain Decks Viable then why ban it? To be honest i still haven't recovered from the Fact Monster Reborn is Legal again. I've never used COSR myself and it definatly isn't Ban-Worthy. And besides COSR can easily be MST'd Dust Tornadoed or even Twistered! That's exactly my argument. However' date=' Crab Helmet's problem with the card is certainly valid. He just has different priorities.[/quote'] Indeed. I focus on making skill as important as possible; you focus on expanding variety as much as possible. Card of Safe Return should be banned because you can use it with Treeborn Frog 4 A ENDLESS SUPLY OF CARDS!J!J!KL!LKL!LOL!!! Actually' date=' The Immortal Bushi is basically a Warrior-only Treeborn Frog, but it can be used with Card of Safe Return, since it requires no monsters instead of no s/t. nah, seriously, I don't think it's nearly good enough to be banned. Only decks that use it effectively are Zombies. Dark World, Bushi, etc. Also, just because only one of the decks that is commonly considered "good" has used it extensively in the past doesn't mean that it's +inf effect, combined with the overextending it promotes, is any less of a problem. Card of Safe Return should be banned because you can use it with Treeborn Frog 4 A ENDLESS SUPLY OF CARDS!J!J!KL!LKL!LOL!!! i lawd! how isnt it just +1?gateway to dark world (-1)' date=' u get a sillva back (+1) u draw (+1)[/quote'] Learn the advantage system. It's a +1...for each time that its effect activates. Since it hangs around on the field, this will usually happen more than twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I've never used COSR myself and it definatly isn't Ban-Worthy. Whether you used it or not is irrelevant; I never used Butterfly Dagger - Elma. Win. COSR would be useless at 1, because the decks that use it completely rely on skill-less playing. 1 COSR would break these skill-less decks, but still allow them to have some sort of good advantage. And while we are at it, ban Grandmaster of the Six Samurai, because it promotes skill-less playing despite being only used in limited deck types. In other words, I understand why at 3 it is broken, but at 1, it wouldn't be a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HORUS Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Grandmaster I have to agree with being banned. I'd be fine with COSR being banned if they banned Grandmaster, DAD, DMoC, and Cyber Valley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Grandmaster I have to agree with being banned. I'd be fine with COSR being banned if they banned Grandmaster' date=' DAD, DMoC, and Cyber Valley.[/quote'] Same case with COSR applies to Cyber Valley and Grandmaster. They are not broken at one, especially cyber valley. If anything, I will quote something God Kaze said about 8 months ago, when this this idea wasn't as good a suggestion as it is now. "Ban Dimension Fusion". DaD decks lose a lot of possible advantage, DMoC loses that edge, and Valley FTK dies completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I've never used COSR myself and it definatly isn't Ban-Worthy. Whether you used it or not is irrelevant; I never used Butterfly Dagger - Elma. Win. COSR would be useless at 1' date=' because the decks that use it completely rely on skill-less playing. 1 COSR would break these skill-less decks, but still allow them to have some sort of good advantage.[/quote'] Why should decks that require no skill be encouraged at all? Having COSR at 1 would simply make them depend more on luck. And while we are at it' date=' ban Grandmaster of the Six Samurai, because it promotes skill-less playing despite being only used in limited deck types.[/quote'] Six Samurai were originally designed to be a control deck, which is why the basic five samurai (Yariza has been disowned) are all essentially removal in monster form (Nisashi's double attack is a type of monster removal). However, it's much more often used as a swarm deck. Anyhow, Grandmaster may cause players of a certain decktype to overextend, but doesn't reward overextending; he doesn't replicate himself. In other words, he causes overextension, but doesn't remove its drawbacks. COSR, on the other hand, removes the drawbacks of overextending. In other words' date=' I understand why at 3 it is broken, but at 1, it wouldn't be a big deal.[/quote'] The problem, then, is how you divide up the banlist: Banned cards are just plain bad for the game and should never have been created. For example, the Chaos monsters. Limited cards are cards that do not hurt the game, but would do so at 3. For example, Mirror Force at 1 discourages overextending, but at 3 it would discourage aggro in general and promote mindless OTKs and the like. Cards like Night Assailant that are broken only when combo'd with another copy of themselves also belong here. Semi-Limited is for when Konami is being wishy-washy. Unlimited is for everything else. COSR doesn't have the qualities of a Limited card; it hurts the game without helping it, and therefore should be banned. Grandmaster I have to agree with being banned. Again' date=' he doesn't reward overextending; he merely overextends. I'd be fine with COSR being banned if they banned Grandmaster, DAD, DMoC, and Cyber Valley. Cyber Valley on its own isn't broken; it's never more than a +0. Magical Explosion is banworthy, if it's the Valley/Explosion FTK that you're worried about. Grandmaster I have to agree with being banned. I'd be fine with COSR being banned if they banned Grandmaster' date=' DAD, DMoC, and Cyber Valley.[/quote'] Same case with COSR applies to Cyber Valley and Grandmaster. They are not broken at one, especially cyber valley. Neither is broken at 3 either. If anything' date=' I will quote something God Kaze said about 8 months ago, when this this idea wasn't as good a suggestion as it is now. "Ban Dimension Fusion". DaD decks lose a lot of possible advantage, DMoC loses that edge, and Valley FTK dies completely.[/quote'] God Kaze was right; Dimension Fusion deserves to be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Six Samurai were originally designed to be a control deck' date=' which is why the basic five samurai (Yariza has been disowned) are all essentially removal in monster form (Nisashi's double attack is a type of monster removal). However, it's much more often used as a swarm deck. Anyhow, Grandmaster may cause players of a certain decktype to overextend, but doesn't reward overextending; he doesn't replicate himself. In other words, he causes overextension, but doesn't remove its drawbacks. COSR, on the other hand, removes the drawbacks of overextending.[/quote'] If GM dies, he goes back to the hand to be used for mindless aggro? How does that not lack a drawback? Neither is broken at 3 either. And neither are used in more than 1-3 different deck types. Magical Explosion is banworthy Not as much as the other key cards in the meta game as of now (DaD. DMoC and D Fusion) The problem' date=' then, is how you divide up the banlist: Banned cards are just plain bad for the game and should never have been created. For example, the Chaos monsters. Limited cards are cards that do not hurt the game, but would do so at 3. For example, Mirror Force at 1 discourages overextending, but at 3 it would discourage aggro in general and promote mindless OTKs and the like. Cards like Night Assailant that are broken only when combo'd with another copy of themselves also belong here. Semi-Limited is for when Konami is being wishy-washy. Unlimited is for everything else. COSR doesn't have the qualities of a Limited card; it hurts the game without helping it, and therefore should be banned.[/quote'] Then by this logic, RFTDD meets the requirements of a limited card. If so, I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Six Samurai were originally designed to be a control deck' date=' which is why the basic five samurai (Yariza has been disowned) are all essentially removal in monster form (Nisashi's double attack is a type of monster removal). However, it's much more often used as a swarm deck. Anyhow, Grandmaster may cause players of a certain decktype to overextend, but doesn't reward overextending; he doesn't replicate himself. In other words, he causes overextension, but doesn't remove its drawbacks. COSR, on the other hand, removes the drawbacks of overextending.[/quote'] If GM dies, he goes back to the hand to be used for mindless aggro? How does that not lack a drawback? Only if he's destroyed and sent to the graveyard by an opponent's card effect. 2100 ATK isn't exactly hard to kill by battle, and RFP isn't exactly dead, especially with Caius about to arrive and Survivors making Macro decent. Neither is broken at 3 either. And neither are used in more than 1-3 different deck types. Being a theme card is now a reason for being Limited? Magical Explosion is banworthy Not as much as the other key cards in the meta game as of now (DaD. DMoC and D Fusion) Those are all banworthy as well' date=' but Explosion is also banworhty. Unlike Cyber Valley, it can only be used for its little OTK/FTK. The problem' date=' then, is how you divide up the banlist: Banned cards are just plain bad for the game and should never have been created. For example, the Chaos monsters. Limited cards are cards that do not hurt the game, but would do so at 3. For example, Mirror Force at 1 discourages overextending, but at 3 it would discourage aggro in general and promote mindless OTKs and the like. Cards like Night Assailant that are broken only when combo'd with another copy of themselves also belong here. Semi-Limited is for when Konami is being wishy-washy. Unlimited is for everything else. COSR doesn't have the qualities of a Limited card; it hurts the game without helping it, and therefore should be banned.[/quote'] Then by this logic, RFTDD meets the requirements of a limited card. If so, I concur. RFTDD is banworthy, I'm afraid. Mindless OTKing, can be activated no matter how much LP you have left (at least Dimension Fusion doesn't work if you have less than 2000 left), and has no real purpose outside of OTK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfmvrocks Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I don't understand how Sillva or Goldd needs CoSR, it won't do anything. [Re: Goldd' date= Wu-Lord of Dark World] If "Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World" is discarded by your opponent's card effect, when his effect resolves, he is Special Summoned first, and then the second part of his effect resolves. So the opponent cannot activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute"; the timing is no longer correct. Also, you could not draw a card for the effect of "Card of Safe Return". [Re: Sillva, Warlord of Dark World] If "Sillva, Warlord of Dark World" is discarded by your opponent's card effect, when his effect resolves, he is Special Summoned first, and then the second part of his effect resolves. So the opponent cannot activate "Bottomless Trap Hole" or "Torrential Tribute"; the timing is no longer correct. Also, you could not draw a card for the effect of "Card of Safe Return". CoSR has more +'s than -'s, and it doesn't really help the game at all, except cause unskillful players to gain multiple +1's. Sorry If I'm idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted March 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 CoSR has more +'s than -'s' date=' and it doesn't really help the game at all, except cause unskillful players to gain multiple +1's.[/quote'] Yahtzee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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