Superdoopertrooper Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 This would probably have to be the weakest banned card and one that could have easily been limited a long time ago without anyone noticing. Discuss this card who's loops are insanely inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 As much as I love Guardians, and would love to see this back just to complete the deck, just no. This is searchable nowadays, which makes all the old loops mildly more consistent. Whilst yes, they probably won't be meta level, if they were it would shock me more, but all this will do for the most part is create degenerate decks based around win conditions that shouldn't exist. Hell, there would probably be a spell counter burn version of the deck which could get away with being consistent enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 As much as I love Guardians, and would love to see this back just to complete the deck, just no. This is searchable nowadays, which makes all the old loops mildly more consistent. Whilst yes, they probably won't be meta level, if they were it would shock me more, but all this will do for the most part is create degenerate decks based around win conditions that shouldn't exist. Hell, there would probably be a spell counter burn version of the deck which could get away with being consistent enough.Exodia and Library to 0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judαs Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Horrible cardShould never, and obviously will never come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Exodia and Library to 0? You know what, I hadn't actually thought of Exodia there, I was thinking about that really gimmicky burn deck from years ago. That's more evidence, and whilst yes, it's more thought that Exodia should be banned, let's face it, that's not happening soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Exodia and Library to 0? Why would that need to happen? Getting Library + Gearfried + Elma to happen is a pipe dream. If someone actually managed to pull that combo off against me, I'd be the first to congratulate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Why would you want this back? It has no reason to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Why would you want this back? It has no reason to come back. I want this back because it's quite embarrassing for the forbidden section. The Chaos Emperor can't be seen playing with children's toys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderVolt Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Konami please make a re-trained version of this that retains it's name. and while your at it give us Backup Gardna. :( ...and Dreadscythe.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 I want this back because it's quite embarrassing for the forbidden section. Chaos Emperor can't be seen playing with children's toys. And it's statements like that cause everyone to disagree with you, and not take your points seriously. Honestly, this does nothing constructive for the game, except just create either horribly designed decks, or decks around a degenerate win condition. There is little or no justification for this to return, because it is only a negative influence on the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Summoner Monks and RotA to search for Girfried AND/OR Summoner Monks and Magician's circle to search for Fire Princess. Hidden Armory for Dagger Now we need a consistent way to get that Spell Absortion thing.... and we have fairly easy infinite Life or the extra step of infinite burn. Maybe not meta, but not fun either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Why don't we just ban Exodia, since all it does is be cancerous for the health of the game. This literally is irrelevant otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Why don't we just ban Exodia, since all it does is be cancerous for the health of the game. This literally is irrelevant otherwise. Gearfried and this cannot exist in the same cardpool. There are still ways to abuse playing a Spell card infinite times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Gearfried and this cannot exist in the same cardpool. There are still ways to abuse playing a Spell card infinite times. I am aware of this, however, I did not say bring this back. I was just stating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Why don't we just ban Exodia, since all it does is be cancerous for the health of the game. This literally is irrelevant otherwise. It's still irrelevant with Exodia. Why would you use a jank version of the deck involving a low probability combo when there are better existing Exodia builds like Dragon Draw and Dark World Exodia which can FTK at much higher rates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 I want this back because it's quite embarrassing for the forbidden section. The Chaos Emperor can't be seen playing with children's toys.What does this even mean? What is wrong with having a growing banlist as more cards get released?OT: Its only use is for a ton of subpar loops that are terrible for the game on a casual level, atm. There would be no telling when a card would be released that would break this and the universe. I don't want to suffer a future format of a loop with this when we can just not even bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 I am aware of this, however, I did not say bring this back. I was just stating it. I know, but you said it's irrelevent otherwise. That's not entirely true, because of what I said: There are still ways to abuse infinite Spells. @Super: You seem to miss the point in a lot of these topics. You're usually partially right with your reasoning for certain cards and combos not affecting the current meta, but that's not a reason to let them free from the banlist. It's in the same vein of "Oh, that convicted criminal hasn't killed anyone for a while, so let's return him into society and see what happens". There's the chance the criminal really won't do anything bad again, or we'll get Black Luster Soldier back and he'll do evil things and either avoid getting arrested again or get sent back to jail. The potential for abuse is too strong, even in rogue Decks, to allow cards with KNOWN abusability to return to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 I know, but you said it's irrelevent otherwise. That's not entirely true, because of what I said: There are still ways to abuse infinite Spells. pssst, I forgot Gearfried existed for a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 [quote name="Dragonic Shardlord" post="6174153" timestamp="1364921766"]Why don't we just ban Exodia, since all it does is be cancerous for the health of the game. This literally is irrelevant otherwise.[/quote] Even if we ban exodia, an infinite draw loop will still lead to FTKs. Fables and Gishkis come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 pssst, I forgot Gearfried existed for a moment. pssst, okay, let's move on and it'll be our little secret. *wink* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 The saying "Put up or shut up" comes into play here. If putting it to 1 would be that broken, then show us how it would be. Give us a quantitative mathematical description of how a deck with 1 Elma in it would even be remotely feasible, even in the most casual of circumstances. What is the raw probability of this combo occurring? How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent? Cards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Elma shouldn't be legal. If you give one and it is mathematically sound, then sure, I'll be the first to concede your point and commend you for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 The saying "Put up or shut up" comes into play here. If putting it to 1 would be that broken, then show us how it would be. Give us a quantitative mathematical description of how a deck with 1 Elma in it would even be remotely feasible, even in the most casual of circumstances. What is the raw probability of this combo occurring? How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent? Cards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Elma shouldn't be legal. If you give one and it is mathematically sound, then sure, I'll be the first to concede you point and commend you. While I'm fond of math and not abysmal at it, I honestly lack the skill, patience, and raw boredom to determine the math behind it. You should understand that I'm not attacking you or your opinion, I'm simply disagreeing with it on the basis of how I would monitor the banlist. It's not perfect, but it's generally accepted as true. Decks that don't win tournaments does not mean the Deck should exist. There are several extremely cheap and unfun Decks that can be made surrounding specific cards or combos, and the results tend to be the same: No one enjoys playing with or playing against those Decks because they abuse a mechanic or combo. Final Countdown and Exodia Decks get a lot of hatred from players because the goal of both Decks is essentially to just stall, and cards like One Day of Peace and so on are incredibly frustrating because the only Decks they truly benefit are the win conditions that aren't fun to play against. It's not even the usual case of Decks that play too quickly or control too much, like Rabbit, E-Dragons, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, or Mermails. These are Decks that don't even pretend it's a game against two people. They're Decks that just sit there and draw cards, or stall. Gearfried and Elma are known to have a combo where you can keep equipping Elma and it counts as a Spell being activated for Spell Counters, or Spell Absorption. Those two cards should never exist together in the same cardpool, because it has the abuse potential, and Konami has known about it for many years, which is why Elma's been banned for so long. From the standpoint of contribution to the game, Butterfly Dagger is support for Guardian Elma, which is actually a really subpar card anyway, or for these loops. And even discounting the single loops involving Spell Counters and infinite LP, there may be further ways to abuse it in the future, and there's no reason to take that chance. The other possibility is Gearfried being banned instead. On its own, Gearfried is just a 1800/1600 Warrior, which has its own supports, and also supports Gearfried the Swordmaster. While not meta-worthy, Swordmaster is much more interesting of a card and should have the right to be played. There's no reason to punish Gearfried for something currently exclusive to Elma. Also, Rod of Silence - Kay'est could provide the same loop interaction with Dagger that Gearfried does. I'm not 100% positive on that, though. Even if such Decks would not be worthy of top-tier Decks and probably wouldn't be re-banned if returned to the game, there's no logical reason to allow such Decks, which are considered by a majority to be awful for the game, to thrive again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent?...the traditional argumentCards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Elma shouldn't be legal.Um...Have you looked at the banlist? It has already been proven guilty. To overturn a conviction you need to provide reasoning as to why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Elma can be searched with Vylon Cube or Hidden Armory, and Gearfried can be searched with Invoker. Not sure how often this would FTK, but opening with Tour Guide, Elma and Soul Absorption would mean infinite Life Points at Turn 1, negatable by Veiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Lolnope. FTK card. I'm sorry for Guardians, but this can't come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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