hand traps need to be destroyed. a rant on hand traps

[RjCardMaker]

hello i am a fan of this game however if there is one thing i really hate in a game where i invest my time and money into its cheap cards that give cheap wins.... in particular im talking about those cards that have no reason to exist yet for some reason they do. (BLS-EotB and #11: Big eye for example) one thing i really learned to hate in this game is the hand trap. but hey lets look at the first one

 

kuriboh was a very balanced card. it was strategic in a way too. while he didnt negate an attack he stopped the damage from the hand. the battle phase still continued and you had to decide when to use it. should you waste it on that monster or keep it for any potential direct attacks. this kept gamers on their toes,

 

there is something bad to be said about hand traps now. in reference to entire phase stoppers (battle fader and swift scarecrow). now i understand the need to stop otks but wouldnt it be best to meet a specific requirement like "if your opponent monsters who's total attacks equal 8000 (likely less or else the card would be unusable)" my main problem with these cards is for the most part they are dead draws... however NOT in a burn deck or a countdown deck or even exodia. this means these cards stop attacks when most crucial and that is not fair. these cards have to ability to stop entire phases because you attacked them while they left themselve wide open. if there are no cards on the field  i have incentive to attack, hand traps promote bad game play. they are cheap ways to get over problems with no real cost if anything something like battle fader is a +1 on the field  now you stopped my entire battle phase and you can happily tribute summon a lvl 6/5 monster. hell i made a card to stop multiple special summons from otking you from the extra deck that by all means is fair. you shouldnt need something like a hand trap. 

 

by far however the WORST and most annoying and broken hand trap i have ever seen is honest. that card is completely unfair. there are many different reasons

1: you pretty much direct attack me when using it after all it gains my monsters attack so any previous attack add-on goes into the punch and this can cause otks. 

 

2: i take the battle damage from honest. remember when using honest its like taking a direct attack from the original monster's attack during the beginning of the battle phase.

 

3: free monster removal- in addition to me taking damage you also destroy my best monster i worked really hard to get out (5 headed dragon in my case). this is devastating. 

 

4: it works on both players turns. if at the moment i dont have a back row but a stronger monster you can go crazy with honest but its even worse and more derpy on my turn. if you have no set cards in the back row as a result of me destroying them by waiting and saving spell destruction i remove both traps you have (both mirror forces btw) i should be in the clear to attack you. after all i waited to use them for a time like this and i damn sure will attack you. i might never get a chance to do this again so i must do it.

its called playing the game correctly and there should NEVER be an unseen card to punish you for playing the game correctly the point of traps is for me to act appropriately to remove them or get around them adding to the strategy aspect of the game. if i cant see honest, negate honest, or get around him on my turn dosent that sound broken? why is that fair for me to lose a monster. honest makes dueling light decks a nightmare and because it simply sends its self to the grave with a monster reincarnation it can be added right back also it makes using powerhouses a no no because you never know when your opponent gets it.

 

5: it combos with bls and can potentially OTK. this has happened to me my opponent summons a bls vs my 4000 atker adds an axe of despair +1000 now BLS a card that can attack TWICE is at 4000 but wait there is more. good ol honest comes in meaning im dealing with a 8000 attacker who can attack TWICE, mind you this is towards the end of the game. i had to use mostly all of my spells to counter and stop his spell destruction summons etc. by the time bls came he heavy stormed me and i was left with no more defense.

 

there are also other hand traps but they all do the same. they punish for attacking or playing the game correctly. the whole concept of a trap is to be a card set on the field to give me warning not to attack once i clear that obstacle i should not be stopped by the hand. that is bad play and a really stupid game mechanic. so yes i am all for banning every hand trap except kuriboh. 

 

 

-- while on the subject while technically not a hand trap necro gardna needs to go as well. his whole concept is a negation of an attack from the grave problem is... mostly run in sworn decks. once judgement dragon hits the field and there is a necro gardna in the grave having been milled out by the sworns eff's i wont be touching that JD in time to remove it next turn. nuke and swing. which is why i dont mind damage stoppers but if you negate the entirety of the attack then that can severely hurt the opponent. i shouldnt be left praying to draw that 1 copy of dark hole or lightning vortex that is unfair. if necro stopped damage then fine why not but the stopping the attack for free thing..... not so much.

 

[Agro]

tl;dr summary:

 

he hates yugioh and said stuff we all already know about hand traps

 

He also failed to mention Gorz or Effect Veiler

 

[Blake]

 

This is a stupid rant. I mean, Honest is broken. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. Hand Traps are awful, dishonest design. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.

 

Your points on Fader and Scarecrow are stupid because they have uses outside of Alt Wins/Burn/Etc., and those decks are the problem, not Fader/Scarecrow.

 

Battle Fader is not a +1. Learn card advantage math.

 

I also find it funny how your rant is on cards that punish OTKs and Honest. No mention of Gorz or the other big hand traps.

 

Your rant adds nothing that somebody didn't already know, actually implies NECRO GARDNA of all things needs to die, blamed said Gardna over the broken ass Judgment Dragon, and so on.

 

Learn to play the game and at least the basics of card design before ranting on the existence of cards like this, because this looks like a pile of butthurt and ignorant points about the game.

tl;dr summary:

 

he hates yugioh and said stuff we all already know about hand traps

 

He also failed to mention Gorz or Effect Veiler

 

frickin ninjas.

 

Least I went in more depth.

[Toffee.]

*Obligatory*


But in all seriousness, hand-traps at least require you to think EVERY move through, instead of just throwing your cards on the field without second guessing any options.
Yea, you topdeck Storm to take out the 1 card in the Opponent's Spell/Trap zone- His hand could still be full of Veilers, and you weren't protected because you didn't anticipate it.
Cards like Veiler/Gorz/Trago, while they seem idiotic at first glance, are still necessary for such a game, when you can be OTK'd out of nowhere, so you need some sort of reinforced protection that doesn't just come from your field.
.....
At least, the way I see it.

[Sleepy]

Long post

 

 

There is not point in crying over blood that has already been spilled (or so the saying goes).

The evolution of the impact a hand trap can have in a play has had to increase, because the game itself can't stop evolving. Back then Kuriboh was enough, because, Monster Reborn, Premature Burial, Call of the Haunted, Polymerization, and Rituals were pretty much your only ways of Special Summoning. 3 of them have always been limited at best, and the others were not a very consistent option most of the time. Where am I going with this? Summoning 1 monster each turn makes it easier for a "negate 1 damage" to be helpful. Special Summons have gone wild nowadays because powercreep, and you must admit, Kuriboh is not gonna do a thing. Powercreep is not always pleasant for the fans, but really cannot be prevented.

 

As said above, alternate wins like Final Countdown, Exodia, burn-stall, are the problems in the new cards' use. Without them, that stall wouldn't get anyone anywhere. It is when a deck can give you a way of winning without changing to the risky offensive, that stalling hand traps are annoying.

 

 

 

What I'd have to say is bad design-wise about hand traps, is that you don't have to bother setting a bluff or anything, it can very well be skill-less pressure added to a game, really. It also is supposed to be a nice principle that the hand is the "safe" place, but now that the hand is being bothered by these kinds of applications, it inspires the need of making effects against the hand, effectively throwing out the window the only confort zone the player really has. Of course, I'm talking design-wise here, and this is pretty much irreversible.

Not to mention, it's also not the most horrible thing to have happened to the game. It's interesting to have variety and to know when something could fall from the sky, depending on the execusion given.

 

Also, if you hate cheap combos, you hate too many combos used nowadays.

[Zauls]

Hand Traps are needed because cards are broken and we need cards to stop them.That is why things like Veiler and Maxx "C" and Fader are good cards, because they prevent broken OTKs even if your opponent has Storm for your backrows. In a format with 3 MST and Storm as well as OTKs, Hand Traps need to be run and there is nothing wrong with the hand traps themselves rather with the broken OTK decks.

 

Obvious exceptions being Gorz and Honest as they are just silly and can steal wins that you don't deserve.

[ihop]

I couldn't be bothered to read it but from what other people are saying I assuming he's not happy about hand traps.

 

Fact of the matter is that if there weren't as many broken cards hand traps like Veiler wouldn't be as good. Just deal with it.

[RjCardMaker]

 

This is a stupid rant. I mean, Honest is broken. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. Hand Traps are awful, dishonest design. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.

 

Your points on Fader and Scarecrow are stupid because they have uses outside of Alt Wins/Burn/Etc., and those decks are the problem, not Fader/Scarecrow.

 

Battle Fader is not a +1. Learn card advantage math.

 

I also find it funny how your rant is on cards that punish OTKs and Honest. No mention of Gorz or the other big hand traps.

 

Your rant adds nothing that somebody didn't already know, actually implies NECRO GARDNA of all things needs to die, blamed said Gardna over the broken ass Judgment Dragon, and so on.

 

Learn to play the game and at least the basics of card design before ranting on the existence of cards like this, because this looks like a pile of butthurt and ignorant points about the game.

frickin ninjas.

 

Least I went in more depth.

read closely i said +1 on the field aka field presence for stopping an attack like that. fader is pretty much unusable in most decks because he is a dead draw. you see him you get 1 free pass at a turn yeah sure but he stops you from getting the cards you really need.

 

now to explain myself gorz is not put here because honestly i never had that much of a problem with him and honestly he is easy to bait out or at least destroy by battle. besides they still take damage so if they didnt defend much on the field this turn... attack directly with your weakest monster last. the diff is gorz comes right on out he can be sloemned or bottomless'ed. he's broken but your opponent can shoot himself in the foot with this card very easily by accidentally leaving 1 spell on the field. admittedly i have lost at least 2 duels because of him but he can be a life saver. 

 

one card i did neglect to mention was tragodia   damn that card stealing thing free lvl 10 (combo's well with galaxy queen's light) can potentially steal a monster and can change its level... fun.

 

veiler i dont mind too much either. i have never been cheated out of a win by a veiler worst veiler was on red eyes darkness metal lol that didnt bother me too much just returned him to the hand to resolve the effect and re summoned him. veiler is an effect stopper but my main gripe is with attack stoppers - the cards that punish you for playing the game correctly. does tragodia destroy monsters unfairly? no they have to wait a turn to use him and if the hand is low enough... you can ram over him instantly that same battle phase. honest cant really be stopped unless you main that card that stop effects from resolving in the grave and it by chance is on the feild.

 

finally lemme mention maxx c... i have never hated this card why? because none of my main 3 decks use heavy special summons in 1 turn. they only wind up drawing like 2 cards lol not a bother... that card stops loops (erherm wind-ups). is he broken? not really but again in the written cards section i made an attamt at punishing for spam summoning the reason for most otk's that would help not things like battle fader that end battle phases and see most play in stall-out decks.

 

http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/297430-punishing-for-feild-swarming-abusable-or-no/

 

 

--sorry for the long post but remember i am still very new and im not sure of everything here. may you guys please stop being so.... condescending try to offer advice that'd be nice. props to users:

@saberzauls

@ayumu 

they addressed me in an intellegent manner without being too snappy about it. 

 

seriously there is nothing butthurt about trying to enjoy something that made you care enough to invest money into.

[Agro]

Frankly, my dear, we just don't give a damn.

[Kyng's Old Account]

may you guys please stop being so.... condescending try to offer advice that'd be nice.

This place is like a Highschool. If you're popular you're powerful. The Jocks of this place are TCG players.

The dream of rationality is often stabbed in the heart and face so many times it becomes unrecognisable on YCM.

Sleepy summed it up really nicely I'd say.

[Toffee.]

read closely i said +1 on the field aka field presence for stopping an attack like that. fader is pretty much unusable in most decks because he is a dead draw. you see him you get 1 free pass at a turn yeah sure but he stops you from getting the cards you really need.

[Agro]

The dream of rationality is often stabbed in the heart and face so many times it becomes unrecognisable on YCM.

But we're being rational. :\

[Blake]

This place is like a Highschool. If you're popular you're powerful. The Jocks of this place are TCG players.

The dream of rationality is often stabbed in the heart and face so many times it becomes unrecognisable on YCM.

Sleepy summed it up really nicely I'd say.

He said Gorz isn't a problem card. This has nothing to do with "popularity", it has to do with the fact that all of his points were shit and he made a rant that wastes the time of anyone reading it.

Also +1 on the field with Fader isn't a thing, because you're gaining nothing, just transferring hand to field. Learn card advantage, again

[newhat]

"Field advantage" is a different thing than "card advantage". In short it's the difference between Photon and Hunder.

 

Monsters that have hard-to-negate effects that guarantee winning a battle or avoiding damage, with very simple conditions (Honest, Kalut, Swift Scarecrow, Fader), are problematic in Decks that can consistently produce those conditions. They are not like Tragoedia, Veiler and Maxx "C", which can fail under pretty normal circumstances (your opponent is holding Mind Control, uses Compulsory, etc.).

 

Gorz is somewhere in between, as is Sucker Puncher.

[Legend Zero]

After skimming through this I feel like everyone is saying the same thing. "Some hand traps are broken while others are not. Some also support broken ideas but themselves are not broken."

Like, we all already know this. The problem is that some people don't know what is and is not broken. They assume that since they have never had a problem with a card it is not broken and vice versa, which is not the case.

[RjCardMaker]

He said Gorz isn't a problem card. This has nothing to do with "popularity", it has to do with the fact that all of his points were shit and he made a rant that wastes the time of anyone reading it.

Also +1 on the field with Fader isn't a thing, because you're gaining nothing, just transferring hand to field. Learn card advantage, again

yet again i never said gorz isnt a problem card but i did say that i never really took issue with him. for four reasons. 1: easy to read coming just use your weaker monster to direct attack last (then again i usually run beatdown decks), 2: your opponent can shoot himself in the foot. he wants that gorz but he has 1 stray spell card used as a bluff set. 3: he can be stopped upon summoning use a solemn or a bottomless. unlike with bls where spell destruction usually preceeds bls, this activates on your turn. put those set cards to use. 4: the opponent takes damage before gorz comes he cant stop your attack for 3000 when he has only 2000 life points, thats a fact. gorz has a weird time to come out on the feild if its too early then i can get around him if its too late then well you just lost before you could stop me. which is where the strongest attacks last mentality comes from.

 

secondly: i fully understand card advantage. i mean advantage on the feild. that fader can get anything out that only needs 1 tribute. a jinzo, chaos shadow monarch etc. learn to read before judging. seriously if you just read what i wrote then maybe you would see.  hate hand traps but in a battle between gorz and tragodia i seriously find the card stealer that can come out to any battle damage is worse.

[Blake]

yet again i never said gorz isnt a problem card but i did say that i never really took issue with him. for four reasons. 1: easy to read coming just use your weaker monster to direct attack last (then again i usually run beatdown decks), 2: your opponent can shoot himself in the foot. he wants that gorz but he has 1 stray spell card used as a bluff set. 3: he can be stopped upon summoning use a solemn or a bottomless. unlike with bls where spell destruction usually preceeds bls, this activates on your turn. put those set cards to use. 4: the opponent takes damage before gorz comes he cant stop your attack for 3000 when he has only 2000 life points, thats a fact. gorz has a weird time to come out on the feild if its too early then i can get around him if its too late then well you just lost before you could stop me. which is where the strongest attacks last mentality comes from.

 

secondly: i fully understand card advantage. i mean advantage on the feild. that fader can get anything out that only needs 1 tribute. a jinzo, chaos shadow monarch etc. learn to read before judging. seriously if you just read what i wrote then maybe you would see.  hate hand traps but in a battle between gorz and tragodia i seriously find the card stealer that can come out to any battle damage is worse.

1. So... Basically, because you can slightly play around Gorz, it isn't a problem? It's not "easy to read" most times, stop being bad.

2. Um... why would you set a bluff if you have Gorz? Bad Players existing doesn't make Gorz balanced at all, and you're a moron for suggesting it does.

3. OH MY GOD IT CAN BE COUNTERED SO IT MUST BE BALANCED WHAT WAS I THINKING!?

4. So, because Gorz can't stop an OTK if you drop it too late, it's bad? How on earth does that make sense?

 

Gorz makes an awful mentality that brings the game down, rewards you waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for simply playing the game, and is just all around awful, broken design. You've offered no real balance to Gorz, only said "It's not bad because I say so".

 

So, basically, it can make a Monarch in hand live when they have a recurring frog, so it's bad? Please, explain this logic to me, cause I'm seeing not an ounce of it.

 

You don't grasp card design or competitive play AT ALL if you think Gorz is fine and Tragoedia's a problem. A situational steal effect against a free +1 giant token. It's pretty obvious the Token, which fuels Synchros and such, is much better than a situational steal on a body that depends on hand size.

 

Seriously, just stop while you're behind. You're offering NOTHING people don't already know, and you're wrong about so many things. If anything, Battle Fader and Scarecrow are the least of the Hand Trap worries, and exist to, at least technically, slow down the game. You can't blame them for Burn/Alt Wins/Etc. existing, and Fader being used in Monarchs isn't an issue at all.

[ihop]

Well I actually bothered to read the argument now and these are my feelings.

 

Your argument about Battle Fader/Swift Scarecrow is reasonable, but skipping a Battle phase is not too massive a reward really, and Scarecrow is a -1 and Battle Fader is counterable. I kind of see where you're going with Fader, because it gives you field presence as well as buying you a turn, however it's still pretty mediocre and generally the decks Fader/Scarecrow are run in are stall decks e.g. Exodia which shouldn't be around anyway, and Treeborn Frog is a much more broken card in Frognarchs than Fader.

 

I agree with you on Honest, I feel it deserves to be banned as it creates a horrible mind game with your opponent and is very difficult to counter, plus Honest + BLS is a really derpy cheap win.

 

Necro Gardna was actually at 1 for a while and was at 2 last format, mainly because you do get advantage by milling it, but honestly it's an awful draw and negating 1 attack really isn't that game-breaking. However there is a point in that it encourages players to overextend to get round things such as Lumina.

 

I don't know what you're talking about with Gorz, it's hard to bait out and near on impossible to get over because if your monster is bigger than Gorz it'll lose to the token and if it's smaller it'll lose to Gorz. It's only going to get worse now that Warning's limited.

 

Veiler/Orange Herald are only good because of what they can negate, with things like Tourguide/Rescue Rabbit/Dragonfly/Megalo around they're necessary and they'll only ever be very good because they're required to stop very broken cards. I remember in loop-up/Inzektor/Rabbit format almost everyone maindecked 3 Veiler just so they didn't autolose turn 1 to a Laggia/Wind-Up loop.

 

Maxx C is a little different as honestly there's not too much wrong with Decks that special summon 2-3 times in a turn, however it rewards intelligent play and if you're playing into a Maxx C you deserve to lose anyway.

 

Trag is iffy but honestly it's not soo difficult to play around and does require you to be in a good position anyway with plenty of cards in hand unlike Gorz which you can drop as your only card and still win the game.

[Legend Zero]

Black is broken, he is just too strong.

[evilfusion]

Hand Traps in general aren't evil by default. It's specific ones that draw ire the most. Hand removal effects are almost always banned or limited, because attacking the hand is too powerful. Doing so removes too many options without real discrimination. Therefore, Hand Traps are slightly more powerful because the game and those running it strive to reduce the ability to harm the hand.

 

Honest is broken. There's very little denying that. The only condition on it is that it only works on LIGHT monsters. As you can guess, this is not a condition at all, and is laughably easy to do in almost any Deck. The reward for having it in hand is essentially the ability to kill any monster and deal a direct attack. And the boost lasts for the turn, so you can't even tactically suicide one monster to get rid of Honest, and then run over the monster with a different one. You'd have to end your turn after losing a monster and taking damage.

 

Gorz is broken. It only takes a few times using or facing it to realize this. It rewards a player for having an empty field and taking damage. That means either you left yourself open or your defense was easily destroyed. It was probably designed to oppose mass removal effects, but it's also laughably easy to fulfill the condition because it's not always clear whether the opponent is actually losing, or if they kept a minimal defense to drop Gorz and take control. A 2700 monster that brings out a Token that will match whatever dealt damage is too much of a reward.

 

Cards like Fader, Scarecrow, and Kuriboh aren't a big deal. They exist to slow things down, and Kuriboh is an ancient card, whereas Fader and Scarecrow are only good in specific decks or as a tech/side option. Stall Decks abuse it. Decks that win via stalling are the problem, not those hand traps.

 

Tragoedia is a gray area. It's more balanced than Gorz, but comes with greater potential. It's a Level 10, but can modify its own level based on a monster in your Grave. Its ATK and DEF rely on your hand size, and the monster steal effect requires you to have a monster in hand whose Level matches the Level of the opponent's monster you want to steal. This rarely happens for anything higher than Level 4, and Xyz are immune.

 

Of course, those in combo and the fact Xyz exist makes Tragoedia better than it was originally, but it's nowhere near Gorz's absurd consistency of stealing victories.

 

Other hand Traps like Veiler and Maxx "C" make for counters to spam Decks or really good effect monsters. If memory serves, this was even true in the anime. It debuted by negating Gatling Ogre, a cheap-as-hell OTK machine.

[RjCardMaker]

1. So... Basically, because you can slightly play around Gorz, it isn't a problem? It's not "easy to read" most times, stop being bad.

2. Um... why would you set a bluff if you have Gorz? Bad Players existing doesn't make Gorz balanced at all, and you're a moron for suggesting it does.

3. OH MY GOD IT CAN BE COUNTERED SO IT MUST BE BALANCED WHAT WAS I THINKING!?

4. So, because Gorz can't stop an OTK if you drop it too late, it's bad? How on earth does that make sense?

 

Gorz makes an awful mentality that brings the game down, rewards you waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for simply playing the game, and is just all around awful, broken design. You've offered no real balance to Gorz, only said "It's not bad because I say so".

 

So, basically, it can make a Monarch in hand live when they have a recurring frog, so it's bad? Please, explain this logic to me, cause I'm seeing not an ounce of it.

 

You don't grasp card design or competitive play AT ALL if you think Gorz is fine and Tragoedia's a problem. A situational steal effect against a free +1 giant token. It's pretty obvious the Token, which fuels Synchros and such, is much better than a situational steal on a body that depends on hand size.

 

Seriously, just stop while you're behind. You're offering NOTHING people don't already know, and you're wrong about so many things. If anything, Battle Fader and Scarecrow are the least of the Hand Trap worries, and exist to, at least technically, slow down the game. You can't blame them for Burn/Alt Wins/Etc. existing, and Fader being used in Monarchs isn't an issue at all.

yet again you put words in to my mouth. is gorz broken? yes. does he promote bad gameplay? yes but i am saying i can easily get over a gorz. this is me who runs a beatdown deck however so puking out a monster with over 3000 attack is really easy for me and that never bothers me because i run dragons who when leaving the feild combo with dragon's mirror to get out five headed.i can see the problem in a deck with monsters who rarely see 2500 but for me this is not a problem however i NEVER said he wasnt a bad card, i personally take no offense with him however. now i had a tragodia steal a horus lvl 8 from me and that shit was frustrating as hell. (i had necrovalley so his bls was useless... he just discarded his bls and then proceeded to win from there.

[Aix]

 i am saying i can easily get over a gorz. this is me who runs a beatdown deck however so puking out a monster with over 3000 attack is really easy for me and that never bothers me because i run dragons who when leaving the feild combo with dragon's mirror to get out five headed.i can see the problem in a deck with monsters who rarely see 2500 but for me this is not a problem however i NEVER said he wasnt a bad card, i personally take no offense with him however. now i had a tragodia steal a horus lvl 8 from me and that shit was frustrating as hell. (i had necrovalley so his bls was useless... he just discarded his bls and then proceeded to win from there.

I'm a big shot, I can get out a 3000 ATK beater. Telling people you have a 3000 ATK beater is completely irrelevant.

 

There really isn't anything wrong with Battle Fader, especially when you look around at the other cards present. Battle Fader can be a dead draw.

[Wildflame]

They can be a real pain but with the current state of the game I feel that they are a necessity. Except for Honest, he can just disappear.

 

Just be thankful that no generic Spell/Trap/Summon negator hand traps have been made so far.

[TheKaitoKid]

ITT: Bottomless can counter Gorz. [FYI, it can't under normal circumstances]

 

OT: Sounds like a case of butthurt to me. Gorz is bad in that it can literally win you the game out of the clear blue. Running a beatdown doesn't mean jack as typically dropping Gorz means you now have a monster tied for the highest ATK on the field. And I don't know why you keep saying attack with the weakest monster first. You attack with the weakest first that way you do the most damage before Gorz comes out. If you attack me with your 3000 ATK monster while you have a weaker monster out, I'm obviously gonna drop gorz on the 3000 ATK monster. Why the hell would I wait until taking damage from the weaker monster before dropping? That's dumb. Honest is broken because it'll single handedly shift the momentum in a serious way. Trag isn't so bad. Most of the time he's a 2400 ATK beater when he comes out. He's not that hard to play around. Fader/Scarecrow aren't an issue either. If you think so, you're just being butthurt. Veiler is fair and so is Maxx "C".

 

tl;dr: Stop being bad and stop being butthurt. 

[RjCardMaker]

 Battle Fader can be a dead draw.

i said that already in my previous posts. fader is a dead draw in pretty much everything except stall out decks and exodia decks. i wouldnt mind fader too much if he was just at 1 (like swords of revealing light should be) but man is it annoying to know your opponent changed the win conditions like that and you cant stop him because they keep on fadering or swift scare crowing. if you want balance put fader to 1. a hand trap like that should only buy you 1 free turn and besides that if i have a card like quasar on the field then fader is useless.

 

as a response to other people who say gorz is worse... well i still feel trag is considering his summon comes out to any damage and if timed correctly and with the right hand setup you have just screwed your opponent over.

 

finally when i say weakest last i mean if your opponent has a line of monsters use the weakest to attack directly (i.e weakest last) HOWEVER if it is free direct attacking strongest last. it will force him to use the gorz. 

 

ITT: Bottomless can counter Gorz. [FYI, it can't under normal circumstances]

 

OT: Sounds like a case of butthurt to me. Gorz is bad in that it can literally win you the game out of the clear blue. Running a beatdown doesn't mean jack as typically dropping Gorz means you now have a monster tied for the highest ATK on the field. And I don't know why you keep saying attack with the weakest monster first. You attack with the weakest first that way you do the most damage before Gorz comes out. If you attack me with your 3000 ATK monster while you have a weaker monster out, I'm obviously gonna drop gorz on the 3000 ATK monster. Why the hell would I wait until taking damage from the weaker monster before dropping? That's dumb. Honest is broken because it'll single handedly shift the momentum in a serious way. Trag isn't so bad. Most of the time he's a 2400 ATK beater when he comes out. He's not that hard to play around. Fader/Scarecrow aren't an issue either. If you think so, you're just being butthurt. Veiler is fair and so is Maxx "C".

 

tl;dr: Stop being bad and stop being butthurt. 

is it really being a bad player to play the game correctly and get punished for it? thats the issue with hand traps. if i put my time and monsy in to this game dont you think it is unfair to pull wins out of your ass gorz included because while i have never had a personal problem with him i an see how he steals wins (i did that once lol) in the end he punishes you for playing and attacking. there is no strategy in getting gorz out at all, or trag. and honest is the derpiest piece of shit ive ever seen. fader whit his crippling battle phase ending ability which is only ever used in stallout decks or exodia decks plus its a free tribute to a 5-6 star monster your turn. if i cared enough about this game to put money into it there is nothing butthurt about losing a win thanks to a card that by all means is completely broken. and can never actually be stopped. so to you

 

stop being bad and stop being a pretencious ass hole, i try to engage in conversation if i made a long post then the last thing i want to hear is a smart ass "tl:dr" cool story bro you didnt read it? well then why the hell should i card if you are not going to read it then GTFO. 

its not butthurt its common courtesy.

 

 

i see YGM is not the closely bonded community i thought it to be with everybody who played the game for more than 4 months being a snarky jerk for the most part. im just here to discuss cards and let out steam. to those who added their imput without being a hasty jerk thank you i appreciate it. to the rest.... shame shame