[MTG] Gideon, Champion of Justice

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Sorry, I forgot when Lingering Souls became mana-intensive.

Aggro doesn't need to answer that, though. They go big and fast.

That's all you get though. +1 each turn, control can't easily handle a 10 turn clock.

[.Rai]

It doesn't matter that some of my list are general answers. When a card is so ill-suited against playing anything in the meta, why play it?

[b]Edit:[/b] Also, putting Obzedat and Hellkite in there is because any deck running it automatically beats Gideon, and half of the decks that can run Gideon would rather run Hellkite or Obzedat. Bloodline was a mistake. Forgot it wasn't instant speed. Wraths + Alchemist's Refuge is actually possible in Bant Control. Began as an answer to Hoof, There it Is.

And Souls is by far the best answer to Gideon. I mean, the card is used in Modern literally for blocking. That's it.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357167835' post='6109471']
Sorry, I forgot when Lingering Souls became mana-intensive.

Aggro doesn't need to answer that, though. They go big and fast.

That's all you get though. +1 each turn, control can't easily handle a 10 turn clock.
[/quote]
Ok, a full set of souls means Gideon get +5 each turn. If the souls want to battle they'll do nothing to him and your giving up the reason your running them. If they sit back to block I'll keep uping Gideon and blow up everything. They are horrible against.

Because your going to be doing nothing else to keep them from going big and fast.

That wasn't what you said before.

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357167849' post='6109472']
It doesn't matter that some of my list are general answers. When a card is so ill-suited against playing anything in the meta, why play it?

[b]Edit:[/b] Also, putting Obzedat and Hellkite in there is because any deck running it automatically beats Gideon, and half of the decks that can run Gideon would rather run Hellkite or Obzedat. Bloodline was a mistake. Forgot it was instant speed. Wraths + Alchemist's Refuge is actually possible in Bant Control. Began as an answer to Hoof, There it Is.

And Souls is by far the best answer to Gideon. I mean, the card is used in Modern literally for blocking. That's it.
[/quote]
Then your saying everything is bad because everything dies to counters and permeant removal.

Your acting like the Gideon player isn't going to do anything else after they cast him. And Hellkite is played in ONE deck, saying R/B aggro doesn't want him is saying nothing. And I still say you can spend all the time you want using Wraths + Alchemist's Refuge against Gideon.

Cool, block my Gideon. I'll just keep using +1 and grow by 5 a turn. Cause if your just going to block with those Souls I'll quickly get to a point that I can just kill the board.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

So basically.

You're going through ridiculous unnecessary trouble to get a pretty damn poor planeswalker to work.

What's the point of this exactly?

And yeah, I'm saying something different, because you helped me realise Gideon isn't even good against control.

Oh and if a Lingering Souls player lets you do anything with Gideon, they're terrible. They keep him down and block him effectively, y'know EXACTLY what Lingering Souls does.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357170221' post='6109525']
So basically.

You're going through ridiculous unnecessary trouble to get a pretty damn poor planeswalker to work.

What's the point of this exactly?

And yeah, I'm saying something different, because you helped me realise Gideon isn't even good against control.

Oh and if a Lingering Souls player lets you do anything with Gideon, they're terrible. They keep him down and block him effectively, y'know EXACTLY what Lingering Souls does.
[/quote]
Pleas explain

1) How I'm "going through ridiculous unnecessary trouble"?
2) How is he bad against control?
3) How do souls block him if your using the +1?

[.Rai]

Of course everything dies to counters and permanent removal. It's just some cards do more before they die. Creatures can use Cavern of Souls. Stuff like Thragtusk are just pure card advantage before they die. Gideon literally is just an indestructible beatstick.

He's essentially a Predator Ooze, except Predator Ooze has a very distinct home.

[b]Edit:[/b] Of course Souls aren't blocking him if he's +1ing, but you're not attacking with him if you're using his +1. And his ultimate is awful.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357170720' post='6109531']
Of course everything dies to counters and permanent removal. It's just some cards do more before they die. Creatures can use Cavern of Souls. Stuff like Thragtusk are just pure card advantage before they die. Gideon literally is just an indestructible beatstick.

He's essentially a Predator Ooze, except Predator Ooze has a very distinct home.

[b]Edit:[/b] Of course Souls aren't blocking him if he's +1ing, but you're not attacking with him if you're using his +1. And his ultimate is awful.
[/quote]
And being an indestructible beatstick is a bad thing? Ooze isn't bad, he does'nt see play because it needs triple green and starts very small, and take a while to be a threat. This is easier to cast, starts out bigger, and grows faster. He is a threat that needs to be answered.

If you think his ultimate is awful you don't know how to play magic.

[.Rai]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1357171426' post='6109540']
And being an indestructible beatstick is a bad thing? Ooze isn't bad, he does'nt see play because it needs triple green and starts very small, and take a while to be a threat. This is easier to cast, starts out bigger, and grows faster. He is a threat that needs to be answered.
If you think his ultimate is awful you don't know how to play magic.
[/quote]

It's not awful, but unrealistic, at least. You will never reach it when against good control decks, and aggro decks will have you dead before you get there. It's only a solution against midrange, who have neither the speed nor the sheer power to match it.

[DeathSDelano]

to answer blockers all you would really need to do is run some Green with Rancor, and if you add in Farseeks and Arbor elves you can get him out Turn 3.

Turn gideon into a creature -> Equip with rancor -> Attack with trample.

As for his ultimate, if your opponent has no lands in hand and you have land and drops you can easily change the game state as the board gets completely wiped.

And he not the worse planeswalker, and we can't really knock him out until we see everything in GTC. its possible that someone will find a place for this

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357171825' post='6109543'] It's not awful, but unrealistic, at least. You will never reach it when against good control decks, and aggro decks will have you dead before you get there. It's only a solution against midrange, who have neither the speed nor the sheer power to match it. [/quote]
If your trying to answer him with Souls you hit the ultimate very quickly. As such, Souls is horrible vs him.

[quote name='DeathSDelano' timestamp='1357171843' post='6109544'] to answer blockers all you would really need to do is run some Green with Rancor, and if you add in Farseeks and Arbor elves you can get him out Turn 3. Turn gideon into a creature -> Equip with rancor -> Attack with trample. As for his ultimate, if your opponent has no lands in hand and you have land and drops you can easily change the game state as the board gets completely wiped. And he not the worse planeswalker, and we can't really knock him out until we see everything in GTC. its possible that someone will find a place for this [/quote]
People seem to be missing the very obvious thing the ultimate does. It reads you win the game. Its just that good.

[.Rai]

[quote name='DeathSDelano' timestamp='1357171843' post='6109544']
to answer blockers all you would really need to do is run some Green with Rancor, and if you add in Farseeks and Arbor elves you can get him out Turn 3.
Turn gideon into a creature -> Equip with rancor -> Attack with trample.
As for his ultimate, if your opponent has no lands in hand and you have land and drops you can easily change the game state as the board gets completely wiped.
And he not the worse planeswalker, and we can't really knock him out until we see everything in GTC. its possible that someone will find a place for this
[/quote]

Of course he's not the worst planeswalker. Tibalt shall always take that space. If we manage to see something in GTC that works well with Gideon, I will eat my top-hat. He's such a gimmick that no deck possibly makes sense for him.

[b]Edit:[/b] If he ultimates quickly, the opponent just kills you quicker. After the two or three extra turns needed to ultimate, I'm not surprised if someone just pops out an Angel of Serenity like that.

[b]Edit:[/b] Wait, wait, wait. If we're attacking Gideon with the Spirits, Gideon only ever gets +1 after each turn :S

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357172034' post='6109547']
Of course he's not the worst planeswalker. Tibalt shall always take that space. If we manage to see something in GTC that works well with Gideon, I will eat my top-hat. He's such a gimmick that no deck possibly makes sense for him.

[b]Edit:[/b] If he ultimates quickly, the opponent just kills you quicker. After the two or three extra turns needed to ultimate, I'm not surprised if someone just pops out an Angel of Serenity like that.
[/quote]
Your not dyeing quickly vs Souls, the card I said cause him to grow super fast. And how does Angel help since your going to ult before it does anything?

[.Rai]

Edited this in afterwards:

[quote]Wait, wait, wait. If we're attacking Gideon with the Spirits, Gideon only ever gets +1 after each turn :S [/quote]

This is the entire basis of my argument now.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Just saying that Ooze sees plenty of play. s:

You also seem to be missing the point of cards in standard. They really need to have some form of inherent value unless it's RDW. Gideon doesn't do this. Gideon doesn't block. Gideon is easy to play around. Gideon is not good.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357172369' post='6109555']
Edited this in afterwards:



This is the entire basis of my argument now.
[/quote]
The fact that it took you that long to think of that is sad. Also, the Soul can be blocked, easily I might add. Using a card you said is made for defense for offense isn't the best use of it.

Also, just going to point out that Hellkite and Staticaster are keeping Souls from seeing major standard play.

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357172440' post='6109556']
Just saying that Ooze sees plenty of play. s:

You also seem to be missing the point of cards in standard. They really need to have some form of inherent value unless it's RDW. Gideon doesn't do this. Gideon doesn't block. Gideon is easy to play around. Gideon is not good.
[/quote]
It really doesn't. And if you see a lot of Oozes, than clearly its good and this, being a better Ooze, is also good.


You can play things that are simply threats if they are large enough, and a creature that is very hard to remove and very big is a large threat. He isn't amazing, but he is good and he will see standard play.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Have you even actually heard of golgari aggro?

You know, that deck that's been doing well for like the past month. s:

He isn't good. He's ok, at best. He doesn't do anything except mindlessly beat, while being nice and easy to block. Or he just does literally nothing at all.

I'd rather be dropping things like Thragtusk, Obzedat, Resto Angel, Sorin, Jace, Thundermaw, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Huntmaster, Olivia, Desecration Demon, Bloodline Keeper, the list goes on and on and on and on.

[.Rai]

A deck running Gideon is obviously not running Hellkite or Staticaster. In the case of decks that are running it, you just side them out game 2 for a better match-up :S

And I have no clue what you're blocking these Spirits with. This isn't offense, anyway. This is preventing a planeswalker from going ultimate.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Wow I just realised you used Thundermaw and Staticaster as reasons to not play Lingering Souls.

2 cards in the entire format that aren't even in the same deck don't invalidate a card that's good against every other card.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357174359' post='6109579']
Have you even actually heard of golgari aggro?

You know, that deck that's been doing well for like the past month. s:

He isn't good. He's ok, at best. He doesn't do anything except mindlessly beat, while being nice and easy to block. Or he just does literally nothing at all.

I'd rather be dropping things like Thragtusk, Obzedat, Resto Angel, Sorin, Jace, Thundermaw, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Huntmaster, Olivia, Desecration Demon, Bloodline Keeper, the list goes on and on and on and on.
[/quote]
Yes, I know golgari aggro. Kibler played it. It might be because we haven't had a big standard event in over a month but I haven't heard any big news regarding the deck.

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357174469' post='6109584']
A deck running Gideon is obviously not running Hellkite or Staticaster. In the case of decks that are running it, you just side them out game 2 for a better match-up :S

And I have no clue what you're blocking these Spirits with. This isn't offense, anyway. This is preventing a planeswalker from going ultimate.
[/quote]
No, but with B/R aggro being one of the major decks of the format it certainly makes Souls a lot worse. Same with Staticaster being a big player.

Resto. And yes, that is offense. Offense means they are attacking and thats what they are doing.

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357174635' post='6109589']
Wow I just realised you used Thundermaw and Staticaster as reasons to not play Lingering Souls.

2 cards in the entire format that aren't even in the same deck don't invalidate a card that's good against every other card.
[/quote]
You do know them being in different decks makes things worse for Souls, not better. B/R is one of the major decks in the format and Hellkite lives in that deck. It also gets played in Jund another deck that sees good amount of play. Staticaster also sees a good amount of play in R/W/U and in Human Reanimator two other role players. So when your running a card that is just blank vs 1 major deck and 3 other important ones Souls is going to be invalidated.

[.Rai]

It's not an offensive manoeuvre though. In a scenario where you can either sit back and do nothing or stop yourself from losing, neither is offensive: one is dying and the other one is not dying. And when does BR Aggro ever use Hellkite outside of the sideboard .-. They end their curve at Hellrider.

Right, now, if you have two identical decks outside of using Obzedat and Gideon as different finishers, and they play each other, which is more likely to win?

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

B/R fell out of favour for RDW anyway. Which Thundermaw is actually in.

Doesn't make the argument amazingly sound anyway, one card in a deck doesn't invalidate one card in another deck, especially one that can easily play spot removal and counters.

Obzedat wins. Every time.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357179953' post='6109714']
It's not an offensive manoeuvre though. In a scenario where you can either sit back and do nothing or stop yourself from losing, neither is offensive: one is dying and the other one is not dying. And when does BR Aggro ever use Hellkite outside of the sideboard .-. They end their curve at Hellrider.

Right, now, if you have two identical decks outside of using Obzedat and Gideon as different finishers, and they play each other, which is more likely to win?
[/quote]
Going on the offense means attacking, and thats what they are doing. Not only that but when they attack they can no long play defense for you. I don't know what list you've been looking at but most of them run him main deck, with the numbers ranging from 2-4.


Obzedat over all a "better card". But it also needs two colors, is harder to cast, and costs more.


[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357180750' post='6109724']
B/R fell out of favour for RDW anyway. Which Thundermaw is actually in.

Doesn't make the argument amazingly sound anyway, one card in a deck doesn't invalidate one card in another deck, especially one that can easily play spot removal and counters.

Obzedat wins. Every time.
[/quote]
All that changed was the focus moved from Black to Red. Either way, both B/r and R/b played some number of Hellkites maindeck.

And yea, it does. Looks at deck lists and you'll see a TON more Hellkites than Souls. Those two numbers aren't unrelated.

Cool, a two color card, that has an even greater color investment and higher cost is better.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Yeah that's so hard with every 2-colour combination having up to 3 lands that produce both. =/

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357182963' post='6109749']
Yeah that's so hard with every 2-colour combination having up to 3 lands that produce both. =/
[/quote]
If your going to try to go 3 colors, casting a card that needs 2 of 2 different colors is going to be hard and really put a lot of pressure on the mana base. This limits Obzedat to decks that are W/B or W/B/x. It is much easier for Gideon to slide into a 3 color deck.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

I really can't imagine it being hard to cast Obzedat. The decks will be playing around 16 of each colour in lands for crying out loud.

Oh and, just going to point out your lingering souls argument:

"Lingering Souls is bad because Thundermaw and Staticaster beat it."

Whereas you ignore:

"Gideon is bad because 24-ish cards that see regular standard play beat him, not to mention regular creature combat gets him more than it gets Lingering Souls."