Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [img]http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/feat228b_ugoh63m1ri_en.jpg.jpg[/img] ALL OF THE DO WANT!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 He seems really quite bad. His +1... Does nothing and if it gains him enough loyalty then they probably don't care about Gideon anyway. His 0 isn't really a good enough reason to run him. Any time you could -15 him, your life is probably around -15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 What is this, I don't even. It's not awful, but I had really hoped for something less gimmicky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 At least he'll have one good use.... Trade bait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bury the year Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 It's just... he's disappointing. If you're in a position to get a lot of counters off his +1, then your opponent probably has enough of a presence to ignore him and steamroll you; and if you try to attack with him using the 0 after pumping they can just chump block and laugh. He's a glorified beatstick who can't even protect you as a player, which is incredibly single-track. Also, why do his abilities seem to play best against the guild he's allied with? O_o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Why do people keep thinking of his +1 as getting him a ton of loyalty. Against a creature deck, most uses of his +1 will get him 3 or 4 loyalty and since he's coming down turn 4, being able to attack with a 7/7 turn 5 puts them on a 3 turn clock meaning his +0 is going to eat creatures at some point. Not only that but against control having a 5/5 that has maybe 2 answers currently in standard meaning by himself he puts a good deal of pressure on your opponent. This thing is going to be super good in midrange style decks since those are the decks will have other creatures to support him and put added pressure on the opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1357152156' post='6109257'] Why do people keep thinking of his +1 as getting him a ton of loyalty. Against a creature deck, most uses of his +1 will get him 3 or 4 loyalty and since he's coming down turn 4, being able to attack with a 7/7 turn 5 puts them on a 3 turn clock meaning his +0 is going to eat creatures at some point. Not only that but against control having a 5/5 that has maybe 2 answers currently in standard meaning by himself he puts a good deal of pressure on your opponent. This thing is going to be super good in midrange style decks since those are the decks will have other creatures to support him and put added pressure on the opponent. [/quote] It eats creatures really, really slowly though. If this actually sees play and turns out to be good, all that will happen is that more people will start running Lingering Souls as a reaction. Which makes this a pretty bad planeswalker. Depends what type of midrange deck you're talking about though: - Naya would rather run either of the Garruks. - Esper tokens would rather run Sorin or Jace etc. - Bant almost certainly prefers Jace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357153524' post='6109272'] It eats creatures really, really slowly though. If this actually sees play and turns out to be good, all that will happen is that more people will start running Lingering Souls as a reaction. Which makes this a pretty bad planeswalker. Depends what type of midrange deck you're talking about though: - Naya would rather run either of the Garruks. - Esper tokens would rather run Sorin or Jace etc. - Bant almost certainly prefers Jace. [/quote] Souls is HORRIBLE vs this. They don't drop his loyalty at all and make him hitting his ult much easier since one souls make him get +5 a turn. Also, no walker could kill more then 1 creature a turn. 4 drop Garruk dies to souls and the 5 drop costs more and needs a huge commit to green. Also, Bant would rather this in a control match than Jace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Ok, so he's decent in a control matchup. So? Jace is still better than him against every other archetype. Garruk, PH is still better than him against every other archetype. Tamiyo is still better than him against every other archetype. Jace, Memory Adept is plausibly better than him against control. Sorin is better than him against every other archetype and is still good vs control. Garruk Relentless is better against every other archetype. The problem is, he's nothing more than a creature that's very, very susceptible to other creatures. If you want to side him vs control, then yeah that seems perfectly fine. But the instant someone uses a creature deck is the instant he becomes useless. If he's ever getting close to saving you with his ultimate, you're going to be very dead before you get that off. If he's ever going to put a clock on them, their clock is definitely going to be faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Bant would rather use Nephalia Drownyard & Sigardas against control :C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357157938' post='6109320'] Ok, so he's decent in a control matchup. So? Jace is still better than him against every other archetype. Garruk, PH is still better than him against every other archetype. Tamiyo is still better than him against every other archetype. Jace, Memory Adept is plausibly better than him against control. Sorin is better than him against every other archetype and is still good vs control. Garruk Relentless is better against every other archetype. The problem is, he's nothing more than a creature that's very, very susceptible to other creatures. If you want to side him vs control, then yeah that seems perfectly fine. But the instant someone uses a creature deck is the instant he becomes useless. If he's ever getting close to saving you with his ultimate, you're going to be very dead before you get that off. If he's ever going to put a clock on them, their clock is definitely going to be faster. [/quote] I'd rather have this then Jace 4, Garruk 3, Sorin, and Tamiyo vs control. Jace am Tamiyo don't do enough vs them and this as a creature is better then the ones Garruk 3 and Sorin make. And your acting like your opponent is going to have a dozen creatures. This coming down turn 4 means your opponent has like 3 and being forced to fight a 7/7 on turn 5 is a tall order. Not only that, but if this is soft to creatures wouldn't that make him a good finisher in control decks since he is cheap and works really well with wrath effects? [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357159561' post='6109350'] Bant would rather use Nephalia Drownyard & Sigardas against control :C [/quote] Drownyard is slow and Sigarda is weak to wrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Best finisher is still Sphinx's Revelation though. Drown yard is slow, but it's still the killer of choice for pretty much every tournament player who plays control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 If he's a threat, then they're just going to kill him or reduce his loyalty to bugger all. Jace, MA is a more reliable clock against control, too. Since this needs to actually hit them over and over again, where they play blockers... y'know like Thragtusk which time walks Gideon thrice. Jace is a 4/5 turn clock and then you just win. Gideon is a 4 turn clock that loses 3 turns to each Tusk (+5 life for one, the tusk itself for 2 and the beast for 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357159954' post='6109358'] Best finisher is still Sphinx's Revelation? Drown yard is slow, but it's still the killer of choice for pretty much every tournament player who plays control. [/quote] Decks can't have more then one finisher? And unlike Revelation this comes down way ealier and actually ends the game. [quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357160031' post='6109361'] If he's a threat, then they're just going to kill him or reduce his loyalty to bugger all. Jace, MA is a more reliable clock against control, too. Since this needs to actually hit them over and over again, where they play blockers... y'know like Thragtusk which time walks Gideon thrice. Jace is a 4/5 turn clock and then you just win. Gideon is a 4 turn clock that loses 3 turns to each Tusk (+5 life for one, the tusk itself for 2 and the beast for 3. [/quote] Again, your going to play this in a deck where he is the/a win con and you can protect him via other creatures in mid range or wraths in control. Also, the fact that he gets +3 or +4 each turn makes him hard to kill. Where did I ever say MA wasn't a better clock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 How does this end the game though? s: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357160264' post='6109366'] How does this end the game though? s: [/quote] Its a 4 turn clock that doesn't die to removal and is hard to kill with creatures because of how much loyalty he gains. He isn't the best card ever, but he is a lot better than people seem to think he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Again, the decks he's good against play Thragtusk. Which again, is 3 time walks against him. However, I do think he'll be a decent 1/2-of in a midrange deck, most likely Naya, only as a 5/5 indestructible creature though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 4 turn clock: - As long as it doesn't get Azorius Charmed. - As long as it get blocked. - As long as it doesn't get countered in the first place. And a general host of other problems. I saw this on MtGSalvation: [quote]this card sucks. here's another way to read it: Gideon Suckface [img]http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gif[/img][img]http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gif[/img][img]http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gif[/img] Creature - Sucky Fake Planeswalker Indestructible. Gideon cannot block. [img]http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana0.gif[/img]: put (a random number between 1 and 3) +1/+1 counters on ~. If you do, Gideon cannot attack this turn. Play this ability at most once each turn. 4/4 that is what this card ACTUALLY does. its awful.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357160750' post='6109374'] Again, the decks he's good against play Thragtusk. Which again, is 3 time walks against him. However, I do think he'll be a decent 1/2-of in a midrange deck, most likely Naya, only as a 5/5 indestructible creature though. [/quote] A control deck tapping out for Tusk only lets you resolve another threat. And it slow Gideon down, but by himself he can beat a Tusk after it resolves. How many other cards can do that that also come down turn 4? [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357162009' post='6109395'] 4 turn clock: - As long as it doesn't get Azorius Charmed. - As long as it get blocked. - As long as it doesn't get countered in the first place. And a general host of other problems. I saw this on MtGSalvation: [/quote] Charm is one of the few things that answer this. But it also stops every other creature, so yea. Plus its not like you have to attack. Getting blocked doesn't actually stop him, it slows him down. Counters have been cut back a lot in standard but seeing as how most spells are weak to counters him being weak to it to sure does suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Wait so are you playing like 12 threat + Gideon control now? s: Last I checked, control tends to not have a hand full of threats to unload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I consider anything that slows him down as to stopping him. Because if something can slow him down, then Gideon is not doing his job as well as he should. I'm sure I can get a list of usable cards that completely beat Gideon in one way or another: [spoiler=/ok]- Thundermaw Hellkite - Obzedat, Ghost Council - Thragtusk - Huntmaster of the Fells - Lingering Souls - Knight of Infamy - Detention Sphere - Oblivion Ring - Angel of Serenity - Tamiyo, the Moon Sage - Garruk Relentless - Garruk, Primal Hunter - Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - Azorius Charm - Selesnya Charm - Sphinx's Revelation - Cyclonic Rift - Sever the Bloodline - Dreadbore - Tragic Slip - Vraska the Unseen - Wraths + Alchemist's Refuge - Dissipate/Syncopate/Negate[/spoiler] This is essentially the entire metagame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Cursed. Sever doesn't hit him. Otherwise, this is a post I can agree with entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357163901' post='6109425'] Wait so are you playing like 12 threat + Gideon control now? s: Last I checked, control tends to not have a hand full of threats to unload. [/quote] I'm playing midrange. [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1357164976' post='6109441'] I consider anything that slows him down as to stopping him. Because if something can slow him down, then Gideon is not doing his job as well as he should. I'm sure I can get a list of usable cards that completely beat Gideon in one way or another: [spoiler=/ok] - Thundermaw Hellkite - Obzedat, Ghost Council - Thragtusk - Huntmaster of the Fells - Lingering Souls - Knight of Infamy - Detention Sphere - Oblivion Ring - Angel of Serenity - Tamiyo, the Moon Sage - Garruk Relentless - Garruk, Primal Hunter - Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - Azorius Charm - Selesnya Charm - Sphinx's Revelation - Cyclonic Rift - Sever the Bloodline - Dreadbore - Tragic Slip - Vraska the Unseen - Wraths + Alchemist's Refuge - Dissipate/Syncopate/Negate [/spoiler] This is essentially the entire metagame. [/quote] Him killing creatures is him doing his job. -Hellkite is played in aggro decks meaning one swing won't kill him. And if the aggro deck isn't attacking you, his job is done -Council comes down a turn later and can't block him. -Tusk and Huntmaster slow him down, they don't answer him. -If you think Souls is good against Gideon then you don't know what your talking about. -Knight is becoming less popular thanks to Izzet Staticaster, but he does stop him. -O-Ring and Sphere are sorcery speed removal. They also hit everything in the game. -Tamiyo keeps him from attacking. He can still grow and nuke the board. -Walkers that make guys slow him down. Also because Gideon always comes down first Garruk is forced to play defensive otherwise he'll die to him. -Azorius Charm stops every attacker. -Selesnya Charm actually stops him. -Cyclonic Rift slows him down. It also effects everything. -Sever the Bloodline, as said above, doesn't hit him. -Deadbore stops him. -Slip doesn't always stop him. -Vraska does, but she stops everything. -Wraths + Alchemist's Refuge is something I'd love for you to do to him. -Counters stop everything. They also aren't seeing much play atm. So, from your list you said a bunch of things that slow him down, general answers, and 3 cards that actually do stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 And since your general goal is to beat down before your opponent gains control of the game... What good is he doing you? He doesn't give you any extra blockers vs aggro, so they just take out more of your life while you tap out for nothing. Control slows you down and they win anyway. Also, lol have fun ultimating him against a Tamiyo locking him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 [quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357166799' post='6109457'] And since your general goal is to beat down before your opponent gains control of the game... What good is he doing you? He doesn't give you any extra blockers vs aggro, so they just take out more of your life while you tap out for nothing. Control slows you down and they win anyway. Also, lol have fun ultimating him against a Tamiyo locking him down. [/quote] Its hard to take control of the game when you have a hard to answer threat. Them blocking with guys means the control deck needs to tap out on their turn and doesn't actually get them anywhere in the game. Your tapping out for a big threat. Against aggro decks he goes to 7 and will represent a 3 turn clock. They can't ignor that since you can win the race assuming your going to actually play more cards and have played cards before you play this. Because Tamiyo tapping him keeps him from using his +1 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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