"Target 1 monster on the field; destroy that target."

[Synchronized]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/qDESp.jpg[/img]

[quote]Target 1 face-up monster on the field; destroy that target. This card can only be activated as Chain Link 1. You can only activate 1 "Fierce Tides" per turn.[/quote]

So, as you can see, I wasn't going for creativity here as much as I was something balanced and playable. Basically, this allows some generic monster removal, but it's not chainable. Meaning it's susceptible to MST and things of that nature, but you can't activate it in response to MST, so there's no mindless plussing.

For that same reason, I made it exclusive to face-up monsters, and added the once-per-turn restriction for good measure. Still, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be worth running in any kind of Stun/Control build.

[DunnoBro]

More like any kind of deck whatsoever.

Despite being restricted to chain link 1, it's entirely overpowered. It can respond to summons, and changes in the phases.

Instant 3-of-staple in everything.

[.Exa]

[quote name='DunnoBro' timestamp='1352310677' post='6063155']
Despite being restricted to chain link 1, it's entirely overpowered. It can respond to summons, and changes in the phases.
[/quote]
If you respond to Summons, it's already a Chain Link 2 (but don't take my word, I was never good with chains)

[Miror B]

[quote name='exaenae' timestamp='1352320247' post='6063268']
If you respond to Summons, it's already a Chain Link 2 (but don't take my word, I was never good with chains)
[/quote]
Summons don't activate.
And I find it fine. It's slow enough for the player to try and think around it.

[DunnoBro]

[quote name='exaenae' timestamp='1352320247' post='6063268']
If you respond to Summons, it's already a Chain Link 2 (but don't take my word, I was never good with chains)
[/quote]

Summons don't start chains.

[quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352320461' post='6063274']
Summons don't activate.
And I find it fine. It's slow enough for the player to try and think around it.
[/quote]

>Slow Enough

Lolno. Needing to be the start of the chain means nothing. Think of it as a BTH which can destroy ANY monster(since it can be used at the same time as BTH) but in addition to that, be used at the end of each phase. (The ending of M1 to go into BP being the most relevant)

Not being chainable is actually a very negligible problem.
We already have PLENTY of monster removal on the opponent's turn, and one this broken is simply silly.

[Sora1499]

Wow. Staple card will be a staple. This card is super versatile: it can be a pseudo- raigeki break, bottomless, or sakuretsu. Cept it doesn't have any cost whatsoever, yet it mimics all of these cards, all of which (cept for Saku, but d.p. is basically an empowered version of it) are staples, one of which is at 2. Needless to say, this card would probably be definitely be semi'd, possibly limited if it were to be released.

[Miror B]

[quote name='DunnoBro' timestamp='1352325765' post='6063354']
Summons don't start chains.
>Slow Enough
Lolno. Needing to be the start of the chain means nothing. Think of it as a BTH which can destroy ANY monster(since it can be used at the same time as BTH) but in addition to that, be used at the end of each phase. (The ending of M1 to go into BP being the most relevant)
Not being chainable is actually a very negligible problem.
We already have PLENTY of monster removal on the opponent's turn, and one this broken is simply silly.
[/quote]
I meant slow enough that you can't just throw it down and use it when topdecked.
And it's not a Bottomless Trap Hole. It doesn't banish the monster. It can't be chained to trigger effects on summon. It doesn't hit multiple monsters.
And this would just replace Smashing as monster removal anyway.

[Sora1499]

It's not quite as broke as DunnoBro says, but it would definitely make the semi list. It takes multiple pop-cards (raigeki break, bth, and saku) and molds em into 1 easy template. Broken? Hells yeah! Ban-worthy? No.

[DunnoBro]

[quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352357614' post='6063688']
I meant slow enough that you can't just throw it down and use it when topdecked.
And it's not a Bottomless Trap Hole. It doesn't banish the monster. It can't be chained to trigger effects on summon. It doesn't hit multiple monsters.
And this would just replace Smashing as monster removal anyway.
[/quote]

Using that logic, all traps are slow then. And even in that logic, this would be one of the faster traps as it can be used in your opponent's freaking draw phase.

And i only gave BTH as an example because of the timing. It doesn't matter if it can't be chained, it can still be activated at all sorts of times. Even attack declarations, changing of phases, opponent drawing cards/searching cards, setting cards, the list goes on, and on. At the bare minimum, even if the opponent did absolutely nothing during his turn, you have 5 chances to activate this card. (Draw for draw phase, and ending the drawp, standby, main phase, and end phase)This would NOT just replace smashing, it would be a staple at 2/3. Think book of moon, exactly how often did you chain book, or have to chain book(Or at least, would have assuming the new OSIE rulings)? Now imagine it destroyed instead of just flipping f/d.

And i didn't say it was banworthy, I said it's entirely unneccesary and poorly restricted. It'd probably go to 1/2 if released.

[Sora1499]

Yeah, I'd agree with that statement.

[Just Crouton]

It's not really broken. In fact, it's kind of outclassed by Compulsory Evacuation Device. You can't chain this to MST/ Heavy Storm, as mentioned above, and this dies to cards like Gachi Gachi and Maestroke. Personally, I'd rather bounce a monster to the hand with Compulsory. This is better than Evac in some cases, though, like against Grandsoil, Moulinglacia, Judgment Dragon, and DAD.

Other than that, if I want monster destruction, I'd rather use Mirror Force and Soul Taker.

[Sora1499]

Soul Taker can't get rid of the monster immediately, and lots of cards are impervious to mirror force.

[Saynt]

Makes sense to have a generic card for destroying monsters, since so many of them can't be targeted or destroyed by targeting effects. It doesn't look too broken, but taking into account cards such as Offerings to the Doomed, I can't help but feel that there should still be some sort of cost.

[DunnoBro]

[quote name='American Machismo!!!!!' timestamp='1352413723' post='6064082']
It's not really broken. In fact, it's kind of outclassed by Compulsory Evacuation Device. You can't chain this to MST/ Heavy Storm, as mentioned above, and this dies to cards like Gachi Gachi and Maestroke. Personally, I'd rather bounce a monster to the hand with Compulsory. This is better than Evac in some cases, though, like against Grandsoil, Moulinglacia, Judgment Dragon, and DAD.

Other than that, if I want monster destruction, I'd rather use Mirror Force and Soul Taker.
[/quote]

The list of situations where bouncing would be more advantageous than outright destroying is very, very short. (Though not to be disregarded completely)

As for not being able to chain to mst/heavy, mirror force, BTH, and torrential also have that problem. Doesn't seem to stop them from hitting the forbidden list.

[Synchronized]

Didn't expect this to generate so much discussion. Awesome.

Anyway, the way I designed it was, it won't work against something like, say, Grandsoil, because the Trigger Effect activates upon Summon and you can't chain this. That's meant to be a relatively big drawback as well, because there are a lot of cards that activate on Summon that this can't do anything to stop. I really do think it's balanced.

[DunnoBro]

Summon triggers don't mean anything unless they'd somehow get rid of the card, because as soon as the effect ends, this can be activated.
So that restriction really does nothing less than what BTH(a semi-limited card) would accomplish in the end for Grandsoil.

[Just Crouton]

[quote name='DunnoBro' timestamp='1352434297' post='6064435']
So that restriction really does nothing less than what BTH(a semi-limited card) would accomplish in the end for Grandsoil.
[/quote]

This card is not a Bottomless Trap Hole, it's a weaker [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Raigeki_Break"]Raigeki Break[/url] (which is at 3). You're comparing a card that destroys 1 monster and can't chain to anything to a card that destroys & banishes a monster that's just been Summoned, and can even hit multiple targets at once.

[Miror B]

[quote name='DunnoBro' timestamp='1352400354' post='6063915']
Think book of moon, exactly how often did you chain book, or have to chain book(Or at least, would have assuming the new OSIE rulings)? Now imagine it destroyed instead of just flipping f/d.
[/quote]
You chained book quite a lot actually.
Dodging effects like Veiler, Mirror Force, Dimensional Prison, Bottomless as well as being able to stop any attack, not to mention that ruling with Glad Beast Darius.
Book was banned for being a swiss army knife. This isn't a swiss army knife like book.
Book also didn't destroy, letting it get around Stardust and similar.

[DunnoBro]

[quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352441100' post='6064490']
You chained book quite a lot actually.
Dodging effects like Veiler, Mirror Force, Dimensional Prison, Bottomless as well as being able to stop any attack, not to mention that ruling with Glad Beast Darius.
Book was banned for being a swiss army knife. This isn't a swiss army knife like book.
Book also didn't destroy, letting it get around Stardust and similar.
[/quote]

Book isn't banned, and i didn't say you never chained book. Or that they were exactly the same, but that the majority of the time, you're not chaining. And neither would you need to here, either.

Also, i can understand the argument that flipping down vs destroying can be advantageous, but to make the point that flipping down itself is a point over destroying, is entirely ridiculous.

The majority of the time, destroying would be more helpful than flipping down. Simple as that. We can go into semantics if you want, but then I'll just leave you with your strawman. As you know it to be true.
[quote name='American Machismo!!!!!' timestamp='1352438804' post='6064478']
This card is not a Bottomless Trap Hole, it's a weaker [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Raigeki_Break"]Raigeki Break[/url] (which is at 3). You're comparing a card that destroys 1 monster and can't chain to anything to a card that destroys & banishes a monster that's just been Summoned, and can even hit multiple targets at once.
[/quote]

*Facepalm* Raigeki break is a -1, this is a 141. That makes this card objectively superior. Weaker? Maybe in effect, but overall the card is much better. To deny that is to feign ignorance on everything competitive about this game. In fact, the reason that raigeki has a cost, and this card doesn't despite doing very similar jobs, should prove to you that it is in fact not balanced.

Anyway, I'm done with you two. The good players already know this card is not balanced, and the bads gonna bad.

[Sora1499]

@Dunnobro
Book of moon is at 1 because its so friggen versatile. You can't compare this card to book, because book has a myriad purposes.

[DunnoBro]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1352474454' post='6064692']
@Dunnobro
Book of moon is at 1 because its so friggen versatile. You can't compare this card to book, because book has a myriad purposes.
[/quote]

Are you saying this card isn't versatile in a manner comparable to book of moon?
Whether book of moon is better or weaker is irrelevant, they're both entirely comparable as they share many of the same situations:

Shutting down synchro/xyz plays
Saving your monsters in BP
Preventing ignition effects
And of course, Monster removal (in bom's case, preparing to run it's lower def body down later)

In addition to that, bom has saving monsters from effects, and bypassing effects which destroy effects could not(A short, but undeniable list). And tides has on-call spot removal so while the differences are clear, it's obvious they are entirely comparable in many aspects.

[Sora1499]

@Dunnobro
Yes, yes I am. You can't save your own monsters from pop effects with this card, you can't reuse your own ignition effects with this card, and you can't flip down an opponents monster to negate its effect with this card. Book of moon can be used on virtually any monster to garner some sort of advantage. This card can only be used on your opponent's monsters, cept for maybe scraps.

[Sora1499]

@Dunnobro
So yeah, they're not really comparable.

[DunnoBro]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1352475536' post='6064712']
opponents monster to negate its effect with this card.
[/quote]

Yes, you can. You destroy it, it's not on the field to activate it's effect. Book of moon couldn't stop ignition effects from already happening either. But it can be activated preventatively, just like this card, to stop it.

And you're still taking the comparisons too extreme, they still have MANY uses, and situations where they'd both fulfill similar purposes. No one's comparing them point for point, quit assuming I am just to get out of touching on the points.

I don't think you understand how comparisons work, the subjects don't need to be exactly the same. In fact, if they had to be as close as you're demanding, then only cards directly superior/inferior to each other could be compared(I.e vanquishing light vs horn of heaven). And that list is very, very small.

These cards share more than enough uses, situations, and overall usefulness to be compared. Just covering your ears and spouting a few differences doesn't change that fact.

[Sora1499]

@Dunnobro
Stardust, zenmaines, and Maestroke beg to differ, all of which are really popular right now. Actually, I don't think you know how comparisons work. Book of moon has 2 sides, sort of like a coin. On one side, you can hamper your opponent's plays in the same manner as this card. If book was restricted to this side, then these 2 cards would be indentical. Except, it has another side to the coin: you can use it on yourself and still collect benefits. With this card, not so much. Book and this card are incredibly different, because book has another depth of use that sees as much play? If not more, than the dude which it shares with this card.