Those crazy Tropes!

[Lt. Colonel Remo]

So, YCM, are there any tropes you dislike to use or read?

I understand that tropes are tools and that any trope can be good in the hands of a master, but do you think that there are some that should be simply be [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerousForbiddenTechnique"]locked away only to be used by a Grand Master Writer in an emergency[/url]?


I personally think it's pretty hard to pull off a good [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightInShiningArmor"]Knight in Shining Armor[/url] without it being full of cliches and Marty Stus

[.Rai]

If your plot is based off 2 or more unlikely coincidences, scrap the plot or redo it. That's my big one.

I'm not massively against deus ex machinas as long as they are at least referred to at some point.

[Umbra]

Plot armor, definitely. I'm sick of having immortal protagonists; it makes the story much less engaging.

[Just Crouton]

Concerning villains...

I try to avoid godlike villains and villains that just stand/float around posing dramatically and talking "deep" about nothing instead of actually fighting.

I prefer male villains to look monstrous/manly and threatening instead of looking "pretty" and effeminate.

I avoid having evil laughs for characters.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='American Machismo!!!!!' timestamp='1352059790' post='6061155']=
I avoid having evil laughs for characters.
[/quote]
Along the way, people seem to have forgotten that villains laugh [i]when they think something's funny[/i]. You know, kind of like everyone else in the entire world.


[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1351981179' post='6060527']
I'm not massively against deus ex machinas as long as they are at least referred to at some point.
[/quote]
I suppose that depends on your definition of Deus ex Machina, because if they were referred to, then they'd be Chekhov's Guns.

[Umbra]

There's a difference between a laughing villain and a villainous laugh, and I think Machismo is referring to the latter rather than the former.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1352064252' post='6061231']
There's a difference between a laughing villain and a villainous laugh, and I think Machismo is referring to the latter rather than the former.
[/quote]
No, I was actually agreeing with him. It just didn't come out correctly. I'm saying that a laugh should be used when the villain finds something amusing, not to punctuate a dramatic line while the screen fades to black.

[.Rai]

[quote name='Dr. Cakey Arclight' timestamp='1352060603' post='6061170']
Along the way, people seem to have forgotten that villains laugh [i]when they think something's funny[/i]. You know, kind of like everyone else in the entire world.
I suppose that depends on your definition of Deus ex Machina, because if they were referred to, then they'd be Chekhov's Guns.
[/quote]

Slipped my mind. I did mean Chekhov's Guns. I'm generally fine with Chekhov's Guns.

[Umbra]

My apologies, must've misread.

Deus Ex Machinas are the worst, though. I have seen exactly one instance where an author did a Deus Ex Machina successfully, and that only worked because the entire story was very, very meta.

[Agro]

[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1352064697' post='6061238']
My apologies, must've misread.
Deus Ex Machinas are the worst, though. I have seen exactly one instance where an author did a Deus Ex Machina successfully, and that only worked because the entire story was very, very meta.
[/quote]How did that possibly happen?

[Umbra]

Explaining it would sort of give away the entire plot, so if you don't mind some Dark Tower spoilers, here's what I got.

[spoiler=SPOILERS AHOY]
Some context first. Prior to writing Book 6 of the series, Stephen King was in a serious car accident that almost killed him.

One of the central devices in the story is traveling between different worlds, on the path to the titular Dark Tower. The villains want to stop the main character from reaching the Tower, to the point where they're willing to [i]go into our world and kill the author of the books [/i]simply because that would stop the main character from getting there. After the main character manages to save King - and a whole subplot of realizing that they're characters in a story - they move on, because you must always move on.

Now, however, the author knows that he has to finish the story, or otherwise the main character won't reach the Dark Tower in time. Did I mention that all of existence is kind of breaking? Because it is, and if the main character can get to the Tower and defeat the last villain, he can hopefully fix it. Now, on their way there, the good guys get trapped by a lesser villain, with no way out.

OR SO IT WOULD SEEM, as one of the characters goes into a bathroom where I think she finds a gun, along with the note "DON'T WORRY, HERE COMES THE DEUS EX MACHINA!".
[/spoiler]

My mind was just severely damaged after that.

[.Rai]

[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1352064697' post='6061238']
My apologies, must've misread.
Deus Ex Machinas are the worst, though. I have seen exactly one instance where an author did a Deus Ex Machina successfully, and that only worked because the entire story was very, very meta.
[/quote]

How about The Crysalids?

[Umbra]

Haven't read it, but reading the WIkipedia page makes it fall under the same category, I guess.

[?someone?]

The one rule I abide by is the rule of cool.

[Just Crouton]

[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1352064697' post='6061238']
Deus Ex Machinas are the worst, though. I have seen exactly one instance where an author did a Deus Ex Machina successfully, and that only worked because the entire story was very, very meta.
[/quote]

The worst DEM I've seen was from Bleach. If I remember, Ichigo was completely outskilled by Renji and losing badly, but beats Renji by suddenly using Inuyasha's Wind Scar or something to beat him in one hit.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='American Machismo!!!!!' timestamp='1352345835' post='6063624']
The worst DEM I've seen was from Bleach. If I remember, Ichigo was completely outskilled by Renji and losing badly, but beats Renji by suddenly using Inuyasha's Wind Scar or something to beat him in one hit.
[/quote]
It's been like four years since I saw that episode, but if I remember correctly there was nothing remotely ridiculous about that. 1. He has previously been demonstrated to have this power. 2. He has used this power in battle. 3. It has been demonstrated twice to be incredibly powerful and basically able to defeat someone in a single hit. 4. He has also been demonstrated to not have much control over this power/be able to use it at will.

That's not a Deus ex Machina. That's not even Chekhov's Gun. That's just a gun. And by gun, I mean Getsugatensho.

(There's another thing in that fight, the Hollow mask which protects Ichigo, which is [i]really convenient[/i] but not a deus ex machina.)

You'll have to find your deus ex machina's elsewhere in Bleach. Oh Ulquiorra, how we miss you...

[Catterjune]

In fantasy/sci-fi stories, I rather like the normal, fish-out-of-water type characters.

The people in the universe have no reason to explain everything that's going on to people who should already logically know what's going on. Without such a character, you end up with exposition theater or awkward dialogue, both of which are bad, m'kay.

[i]in my opinion[/i]

[Phantom Roxas]

Since the reason I hate Bagramon so much is that he's an example of Orcus on His Throne, I'll count that. I'm okay with it if it's a video game, like in Zelda or Kirby or something, because that's how it goes, but I tend to prefer villains that have a genuine reason for not participating, like if they're Sealed Evil in a Can who can communicate with their subordinates and are trying to orchestrate their own return.

Word of God is also pretty terrible. If it's for something like saying "This character likes this kind of food" or "Lin's father is ______", then okay, I'm fine with that, since it may not matter much to the overall story. However, let's look to Ben 10 Alien Force, which is a huge offender of this trope. Stuff in various episodes either had no explanation or directly contradicted facts or events established in the previous series, and so Dwayne McDuffie had to answer questions on a message board to clear things up. I believe some of these points were eventually established within the actual show, but the point is that the audience would have to look outside the context of the story to get the answer. This isn't Inception, where the ending is intentionally ambiguous and it's the sort of thing that is meant to get the audience debating over what is true and what's not, this is pure lazy writing.

[Blake]

[quote name='Dr. Cakey Arclight' timestamp='1352402203' post='6063934']
You'll have to find your deus ex machina's elsewhere in Bleach. Oh Ulquiorra, how we miss you...
[/quote]
And then Aizen got a less bullshitty death than Ulquiorra. Goddammit Kubo.

Like Roxas, I really hate when a villain could just stomp the hero out of existence, but just sits there and does nothing. To carry on from his example of Bagramon.... Bagramon had the power to [acronym=Attack across dimensions and send the heroes back to the human world. In fact, he did. Once. then he got back by bullshit, and Bagramon just shrugged.]spoiler[/acronym]. It just... confounds me.

[Phantom Roxas]

Another problem with Bagramon was that DarkKnightmon was such an impressive and proactive villain that he came across as more of a personal enemy to the heroes than Bagramon ever did, making Bagramon's flaws all the more glaring.

[Catterjune]

[quote name='Phantom Roxas' timestamp='1352404750' post='6063960']
Word of God is also pretty terrible.
[/quote]
That's a pretty interesting opinion there Phantom Roxas.

On a completely unrelated I find Kingdom Hearts to be one of the biggest offenders of this. You don't know what exactly a nobody is until after you've met about 6 of them. You don't know who Roxas is or what significance he has to the story until Ansem/DiZ tells you way way way at the end. All of this info was however, revealed in interviews with the guy in charge.

[Lt. Colonel Remo]

[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1352066576' post='6061264']
[spoiler=SPOILERS AHOY]
Some context first. Prior to writing Book 6 of the series, Stephen King was in a serious car accident that almost killed him.

One of the central devices in the story is traveling between different worlds, on the path to the titular Dark Tower. The villains want to stop the main character from reaching the Tower, to the point where they're willing to [i]go into our world and kill the author of the books [/i]simply because that would stop the main character from getting there. After the main character manages to save King - and a whole subplot of realizing that they're characters in a story - they move on, because you must always move on.

Now, however, the author knows that he has to finish the story, or otherwise the main character won't reach the Dark Tower in time. Did I mention that all of existence is kind of breaking? Because it is, and if the main character can get to the Tower and defeat the last villain, he can hopefully fix it. Now, on their way there, the good guys get trapped by a lesser villain, with no way out.

OR SO IT WOULD SEEM, as one of the characters goes into a bathroom where I think she finds a gun, along with the note "DON'T WORRY, HERE COMES THE DEUS EX MACHINA!".
[/spoiler]

My mind was just severely damaged after that.
[/quote]

This type of writing should have a genre all to itself xD

Also, a film adaption would impossible unless they actually made a film of King writing the story and not exclusively about the story itself

[Phantom Roxas]

[quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1352407048' post='6064002']
That's a pretty interesting opinion there Phantom Roxas.
On a completely unrelated I find Kingdom Hearts to be one of the biggest offenders of this. You don't know what exactly a nobody is until after you've met about 6 of them. You don't know who Roxas is or what significance he has to the story until Ansem/DiZ tells you way way way at the end. All of this info was however, revealed in interviews with the guy in charge.
[/quote]

Even I am not going to defend Kingdom Hearts about that. The fact that we don't get the Final Mixes only makes it worse. However, I thought you figure out what significance Roxas has by the time you're done playing as him, which is more due to the length of the prologue. But the whole concept of destroying the Heartless and the Nobody to bring the original person back definitely qualifies as being revealed in an interview before being shown in the story.