Shakespeare is a Fraud.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Through countless investigation and evidence. It is clear that William Shakespeare is not the man who wrote all of those plays and sonnets. His back story does not add up.

It is almost impossible for a man of his time to have gotten such a good education to produce such knowledgeable and grammatical plays. He also lacked the Aristocratic reputation to know so much about the Royal Court. These are all in his works. Due to the fact that Stratford was a very backwards town during that time and the fact that Shakespeare's alleged parents signed their names with a mark and no evidence of their writing has been found. How can you bring up such a poetical genius in such a area? It is impossible. There is almost no evidence of Shakespeare's education nor his literacy which also raises questions whether the man was illiterate or not.

How could such a man have such an extensive vocabulary? His last will had no poetical relevance or any reference to his unfinished works and was rather mundane and regular for such a man. This high amount of evidence proves that Shakespeare was not the man who wrote all of those plays and sonnets and is not the man who we remember him for.

Discuss.

[Kakashi Hatake]

So you're saying that he's a fraud because you think that he didn't know anything? Sure-- okay, buddy.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='Kakashi Hatake' timestamp='1348529937' post='6031447']
So you're saying that he's a fraud because you think that he didn't know anything? Sure-- okay, buddy.
[/quote]
Not just the fact his back story makes no sense. I propose that Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford and Lord of Great Chamberlain, was the real author behind Shakespeare's plays. And I provided evidence as to why Shakespeare didn't know anything.

[Raine]

Wow, this is an interesting topic said 1598

Shakespeare was born into a relative rank, his father was small area councilman while his mother was the daughter of a londowner meaning both of them were probably reasonably educated at the time or at the very least, valued that education. His attendance of grammar school would be a top priority for someone of his class, since he wasn't a landworker and didn't have to work his childhood.

However when it comes down to it, why was Alexander able to general so many forces to conquer the known world? How did Galileo think to point his spyglass to the moon and stars? How did Cyrus think to rule kings by a king and have religious freedom millenniums before it became a conceivable notion in Europe? ...some people are just REALLY good at what they do and can make a difference or display that ability.

[SpectralMaliceX]

Shakespeare's parents signed their names as marks? Not sure if you're aware but putting an x on paper rather than your name was common practice then.

As for how can you raise a genius in such a place as Shakespeare? Leonardo di vinci was raised in the poorest part of florence and he was a genius inventor and an exceptional artist whose talent was only discovered in his early teens.

And finally onto his knowledge of common place activities in a palace, or how aristocracy acted/spoke/dressed, one can learn those things by watching people. Also there is no evidence to say he was not of a blood line with royal connections.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Notice how Shakespeare's plays make extreme relevance to Edward de Vere's life. Examples?
Hamlet's father was murdered unexpectedly and his mother remarried shortly thereafter, less than two months after his death. There is a parallel with Oxford's life, as his dad died at the age of 46.

"At 12, Oxford was made a royal ward and placed in the household of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cecil,_1st_Baron_Burghley"]Lord Burghley[/url], who was the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_High_Treasurer"]Lord High Treasurer[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I_of_England"]Queen Elizabeth I[/url]'s closest and most trusted advisor. Oxfordians claim that Lord Burghley was the model for the character of chief minister [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonius"]Polonius[/url] in [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet"]Hamlet[/url][/i]. In the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_Q1"]First Quarto[/url] the character was not named Polonius, but Corambis, and Ogburn asserts that [i]Cor ambis[/i] means "two-hearted" (a view not independently supported by Latinists). He says the name is a swipe "at Burghley’s motto, [i]Cor unum, via una[/i], or 'one heart, one way.'" Other scholars suggest that it derives from the Latin phrase "crambe repetita" meaning "reheated cabbage", which was expanded in Elizabethan usage to "[i]Crambe bis[/i] posita mors est" ("twice served cabbage is deadly"),[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfordian_theory_of_Shakespeare_authorship#cite_note-148"][149][/url][/sup] which implies "a boring old man" who spouts trite rehashed ideas.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfordian_theory_of_Shakespeare_authorship#cite_note-149"][150][/url][/sup] Similar variants such as "Crambo" and "Corabme" appear in Latin-English dictionaries at the time."

Also mentioning the Geneva Bible found which was owned by Edward de Vere and had over a thousand underlined pieces in which a quarter of them were used in Shakespeare's works either by allusion or quotation or using them in the play presently.

Edward was a well known supporter of the arts and had funded the Blackfriars Theatre and led two acting companies Oxford's Boys and Oxford's Men. One of Edward's Titles was "Lord of Great Chamberlain" funny what does that remind me of? The Lord Chamberlain's men? The group Shakespeare allegedly belonged to?

Let's not forget Vere's many family connections to prominent literary figures. Arthur Golding was his uncle and Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey was the inventor of the English Shakespearean Sonnet form.

[Raine]

The Bill of Rights was signed by 13 members. 13 x 2 is 26, the number of games the Lakers lost in 1933. 1933 divided by the number of random events you can try to coincidentally tie to Shakespeare, means we have to go see a midget in London who knows the anwsers, LET'S GO!

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='Raine™' timestamp='1348531600' post='6031463']
The Bill of Rights was signed by 13 members. 13 x 2 is 26, the number of games the Lakers lost in 1933. 1933 divided by the number of random events you can try to coincidentally tie to Shakespeare, means we have to go see a midget in London who knows the anwsers, LET'S GO!
[/quote]
I am guessing you only skimmed through my entire post. Which disappoints me.

You cannot merely call all of these coincidences. It is obvious that a man of royal stature would not want to take credit for plays during a time in which they were shunned as Puritan rulers attempted to gain control over the throne.

[Agro]

[img]http://www.xiphux.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/wtf.jpg[/img]

[Expelsword]

[quote name='Izaya Orihara' timestamp='1348529401' post='6031440']
Through countless investigation and evidence. It is clear that William Shakespeare is not the man who wrote all of those plays and sonnets. His back story does not add up.
Discuss.
[/quote]
Hold on a minute...
quote name='Izaya Orihara'
quote name='[size=5]Izaya Orihara[/size]'

Nice try...

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Guys this is the exact reason why the Debate section failed back then. You must post a counter argument or I will report you. This is for intelligent discussion, not mockery of opinions.

I am NOT playing around. Do it again and whoever does it will be reported.

[Kakashi Hatake]

[quote name='Izaya Orihara' timestamp='1348532505' post='6031477']
Guys this is the exact reason why the Debate section failed back then. You must post a counter argument or I will report you. This is for intelligent discussion, not mockery of opinions.
[/quote]
Shhh sh shh. Be quiet now, crazy person.

[Legend Zero]

Warns for everyone who spammed!

Post serious debates or not at all, I won't tolerate it in this section.

[Agro]

Would you like an argument?

Here's one: He can read. Read books. Books about frankly anything he wants to learn about.

While you don't have "proof" that he could read, you also have no "proof" that he could not.

More importantly, his ability to read completely destroys every single argument you've posed so far.

Plus I'm not even sure that you're premises are solid.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1348532900' post='6031485']
Would you like an argument?

Here's one: He can read. Read books. Books about frankly anything he wants to learn about.
[/quote]
He can't learn if he can't read. He can't read if he is illiterate. Although there is no evidence to support he was illiterate, there is no evidence that he, his parents, or his siblings were literate either. While Edward de Vere was brought up and educated by the highest and most prestigious literary scholars. You claim me as wrong when you cannot prove he was literate in order to read books and learn the things he wanted to learn. Edward de Vere's past and education scream a man who spent a lot of time in the theatre circle.

[Agro]

[quote name='Izaya Orihara' timestamp='1348533181' post='6031491']
He can't learn if he can't read. He can't read if he is illiterate. Although there is no evidence to support he was illiterate, there is no evidence that he, his parents, or his siblings were literate either. While Edward de Vere was brought up and educated by the highest and most prestigious literary scholars. You claim me as wrong when you cannot prove he was literate in order to read books and learn the things he wanted to learn. Edward de Vere's past and education scream a man who spent a lot of time in the theatre circle.
[/quote]You've shown me nothing to say that he was illiterate, though. You're affirming the consequence.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1348533312' post='6031493']
You've shown me nothing to say that he was illiterate, though. You're making one god awful argument of induction.
[/quote]
I could say the same about you in which you give me nothing to say he was literate.
Either way that debate would lead us in circles. How about you explain why the connections between Edward and the works don't add up?

[Kakashi Hatake]

[quote name='Izaya Orihara' timestamp='1348533181' post='6031491']
He can't learn if he can't read. He can't read if he is illiterate. Although there is no evidence to support he was illiterate, there is no evidence that he, his parents, or his siblings were literate either. While Edward de Vere was brought up and educated by the highest and most prestigious literary scholars. You claim me as wrong when you cannot prove he was literate in order to read books and learn the things he wanted to learn. Edward de Vere's past and education scream a man who spent a lot of time in the theatre circle.
[/quote]
Dude, your entire argument is based off of the opinion that he [i]might[/i] not have known how to read when all evidence points to the contrirary.

[bury the year]

[quote name='Izaya Orihara' timestamp='1348533181' post='6031491']
Although there is no evidence to support he was illiterate,
[/quote]

Stop. Absence of evidence is not evidence in itself. The [url="http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/55-argument-from-silence"]argument from silence[/url] is a logical fallacy: if you want to say that Shakespeare couldn't have written it via illiteracy, please provide some actual evidence as to [i]how he couldn't have himself[/i]. Not his parents or his siblings or children or anything like that, because that makes unproven assumptions. Additionally, Occam's razor. Saying that Shakespeare did in fact write his own plays makes the least assumptions and logical disjoints: thus, all theories being equal, it is the one that is commonly accepted.

[Lunar Origins]

Izaya, your arguments suck and so does this thread.

You don't know Shakespeare. It has gone down in the history books that he has done X, Y, and Z; it's going to stay that way because that's the way it has been.

It's like arguing that a certain Mr. Einstein did not come up with his theories; how could you, ESPECIALLY you, know?

[Agro]

[quote name='Izaya Orihara' timestamp='1348533391' post='6031495']
I could say the same about you in which you give me nothing to say he was literate.
Either way that debate would lead us in circles. How about you explain why the connections between Edward and the works don't add up?
[/quote]I'm posing an argument of induction. Meaning you have no proof against it.

You're posing an argument that affirms the consequence. Making it immediately invalid.

Your argument is infinitely less solid than mine.

[Ice.]

The entirety of your argument truly boils down to assumption and coincidences. That's all you're riding on here.

It lacks evidence, and some decisive ones at that. I personally have doubts that Shakes wrote some of his "classics", but even I know that there's nothing that truly proves this.

We'll probably never know if the guy was the literary genius he seems to be or not, as we lack a shitload of information from that time.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='Ice.' timestamp='1348535122' post='6031524']
The entirety of your argument truly boils down to assumption and coincidences. That's all you're riding on here.

It lacks evidence, and some decisive ones at that. I personally have doubts that Shakes wrote some of his "classics", but even I know that there's nothing that truly proves this.

We'll probably never know if the guy was the literary genius he seems to be or not, as we lack a shitload of information from that time.
[/quote]
As much as I still cling to the Oxfordian Theory of Shakespeare Authorship, your post is something I cannot disagree with.

I guess the main thing is we lack whatever evidence is required to prove either sides at the moment and while it would be good to know who honestly wrote them. It cannot be denied that these plays and sonnets have brought joy and sadness to one's heart, and for that I think whoever wrote them, no matter whom, should be thanked for this contribution to theatre.

I cease my argument. And will not continue to post in this topic.

[Johan Liebert]

pointless...pointless...pointless

[Legend Zero]

Next person to post spam in this thread will receive a 3 day ban.