Attempt #3 at balancing Exodia

[Zowayix]

Give all 5 pieces the following effect:

"You can reveal this card in your hand. The effect of a "Forbidden One" monster can only be activated once per turn. When 5 different "Forbidden One" monsters have been revealed in your hand by their own effect, you win the Duel."

[Agro]

Hey guys. I had the most brilliant idea EVER.
Why don't we remake Exodia!
Except this time, not only do we make it so that we can reveal the same piece 5 times to win,
But we can also totally not have to have them all in the same hand!
That's MUCH more balanced than the original, isn't it?

No, but seriously, stop with the terrible retrains of Exodia. Exodia shouldn't exist. Period. Stop acting like it should.

[Zowayix]

???

When you reveal a card in your hand, it stays revealed unless an effect tells it to stop being revealed. And the card text clearly says "5 [b]different[/b] "Forbidden One" monsters".
You would need a minimum of 5 turns to win with this effect, even if you drew all 5 pieces in one turn. And if a piece leaves your hand, it will no longer be "revealed in your hand", and you would need to get it back.

[Agro]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1347900668' post='6026665']
???

When you reveal a card in your hand, it stays revealed unless an effect tells it to stop being revealed. And the card text clearly says "5 [b]different[/b] "Forbidden One" monsters".
You would need a minimum of 5 turns to win with this effect, even if you drew all 5 pieces in one turn. And if a piece leaves your hand, it will no longer be "revealed in your hand", and you would need to get it back.
[/quote]The joke is, you have no idea how your effect would work. It doesn't matter if one of them leaves your hand, as long as you revealed it, it works. And if it doesn't, then you can't activate Exodia at all, and this isn't balanced, it's just cardboard.

And it doesn't matter if it says "different" because how do you know that the first piece I revealed is any different than the second one? A revealed card doesn't stay revealed, and your hand is not the common knowledge of your opponent.

The hand isn't the Graveyard, and even if it was, if you had 3 left arms and 2 left legs, that still counts as 5 different "Forbidden One" monsters.

In other words, your cards are either stupidly broken, or are as worthless as level 1 vanillas.

[Zowayix]

Ok, fine. Looks like a wording issue, so:

"You can reveal this card in your hand. If you do, it stays revealed in your hand (until it leaves your hand). You can only activate the effect of a "Forbidden One" monster once per turn. If 5 "Forbidden One" monsters with different names are revealed in your hand by their own effects, you win the Duel."

[Agro]

This isn't any more balanced than it was before.

It's still Exodia. It's still an alt win. And it STILL doesn't improve player to player interactions.

That's the reason no one likes Exodia, and more importantly, it's why I said you, and anyone else for that matter, should stop making "balanced" versions of it.

[Lonk]

...why does OP have a fetish with attempting to balance Exodia, considering that there is practically no way that Exodia's concept could be balanced?

[Zowayix]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347924171' post='6026922']And it STILL doesn't improve player to player interactions.[/quote]
Fine:

Attempt #4:
Change Exodia's effect to: "During either player's turn, you can return a "Forbidden One" monster in your hand to your Deck. Once per turn, when a DIVINE monster or a level 11 or higher monster you control declares an attack, you can add a "Forbidden One" monster from your Deck to your hand. If [all 4 other pieces] are added to your hand by this effect, you win the Duel."

Attempt #5:
Change Exodia's effect to: "If you control no cards, your opponent controls monsters whose combined ATK are 8000 or higher, and you have [all 5 pieces] in your hand, you win the Duel."

Attempt #6:
Change Exodia's effect to: "If you control [all 5 pieces] that were Normal Summoned, you win the Duel."

Unlike the original Exodia, none of these effects can FTK. Unlike Final Countdown and attempt #3, none of them can be achieved purely through stalling for a very long time.

[Agro]

#4. Unplayable
#5. Changes Nothing
#6. Changes Nothing

I'm serious. Stop trying.

[Zowayix]

Please, honestly tell me how #5 and #6 change nothing. They can't FTK, and you can't simply stall to get them out.

[Agro]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1347930968' post='6026985']
Please, honestly tell me how #5 and #6 change nothing. They can't FTK, and you can't simply stall to get them out.
[/quote]Because you're still going to be playing with yourself.

And as it is

#5 requires that you not have any cards on the field. Therefore the whole deck is just going to consist of exactly what it consisted of before. Cards that stop the opponent from attack and cards that draw. It literally changes nothing about the deck, besides maybe making it harder to play Hope for an Escape.

#6 will just be a race to get Ultimate Offering. along with the 5 pieces. It's just going to be Exodia with an extra piece.

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347930376' post='6026980']
I'm serious. Stop trying.
[/quote]

[R.Surraco]

#5 changes quite much: Your enemy must be on the start of a very fast Slippery Slope for you to use Exodia's full power. It actually turns a "Your defeat in inevitable!" into an "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" but ONLY if there's chance of a "Your defeat is inevitable!" So, every duel must be like Yugi's first battle with Kaiba if you wanna win with Exodia.

[Zowayix]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347931880' post='6026993']#5 requires that you not have any cards on the field. Therefore the whole deck is just going to consist of exactly what it consisted of before. Cards that stop the opponent from attack and cards that draw. It literally changes nothing about the deck, besides maybe making it harder to play Hope for an Escape.[/quote]How do you plan to get 8000 ATK onto your opponent's field with Draw+Stall.dek?
@R.Surraco: That's what I was going for.

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347931880' post='6026993']#6 will just be a race to get Ultimate Offering. along with the 5 pieces. It's just going to be Exodia with an extra piece.[/quote]Goddammit I forgot about Ultimate Offering. Screw this version then.

[Agro]

Hm. Misread it.

Okay, then it's only playable if your opponent is an idiot.

[R.Surraco]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347934683' post='6027015']
Hm. Misread it.

Okay, then it's only playable if your opponent is an idiot.
[/quote]

Not actually: the only way that situation can be made is if the +8000 ATK of your opponent wipe your field but leave you alive. And that's the only moment you can use #5 Exodia's effect.

[Agro]

[quote name='R.Surraco' timestamp='1347935030' post='6027022']
Not actually: the only way that situation can be made is if the +8000 ATK of your opponent wipe your field but leave you alive. And that's the only moment you can use #5 Exodia's effect.
[/quote]OR. You can let your opponent put out 8000+ of monsters and then use Waboku or Threatening Roar or Battle Fader or Swift Scarecrow. You know. Like current Exodia decks do.

Of course, you're opponent won't do that if he knows you're playing Exodia. So either you have to do it yourself, which, mind you, means no P2P interactions, or your Opponent is an idiot just playing monsters and you may as well have been playing against a computer.

In either case, it's still god awful design. You've yet to show me anything that would change my mind and make me think that this thread shouldn't be locked.

[quote name='R.Surraco' timestamp='1347932251' post='6026997']
#5 changes quite much: Your enemy must be on the start of a very fast Slippery Slope for you to use Exodia's full power. It actually turns a "Your defeat in inevitable!" into an "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" but ONLY if there's chance of a "Your defeat is inevitable!" So, every duel must be like Yugi's first battle with Kaiba if you wanna win with Exodia.
[/quote]This is the same thought as Gorz. Why the hell should someone be rewarded for playing absolutely horribly? They shouldn't. It's terrible card design.

[R.Surraco]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347936667' post='6027027']
OR. You can let your opponent put out 8000+ of monsters and then use Waboku or Threatening Roar or Battle Fader or Swift Scarecrow. You know. Like current Exodia decks do.

Of course, you're opponent won't do that if he knows you're playing Exodia. So either you have to do it yourself, which, mind you, means no P2P interactions, or your Opponent is an idiot just playing monsters and you may as well have been playing against a computer.

In either case, it's still god awful design. You've yet to show me anything that would change my mind and make me think that this thread shouldn't be locked.[/quote]

Oh.. I see... Sorry, I'm kinda new to the game and pretty much forgot about the Exodia deck.

[Agro]

[quote name='R.Surraco' timestamp='1347936947' post='6027033']
Oh.. I see... Sorry, I'm kinda new to the game and pretty much forgot about the Exodia deck.
[/quote]That's alright.

[url="http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/231964-on-card-design/"]http://forum.yugiohc...on-card-design/[/url]

Here's a thread to help people learn what's good and bad card design if you haven't read it. Though you did mention Slippery Slope, so maybe you did.

[-Griffin]

@Agro: I'm with you that Exodia is a horrid concept which should be buried and never returned to, but I believe Gorz has some very solid design principles. That's a debate for another time.


My stance on this is thus: Your opponent's Deck will be built upon certain assumptions, which are fair enough because they're true against 95% of the large variety of Decks in existence. They assume you'll try to win by attacking in some way or keeping cards on the field to damage life points. They assume you'll run some sort of backrow which is affected by MST/Heavy, even if it's only a few Solemns and a Book of Moon. They assume you'll have card removal in some form. Most assume you're going to Normal Summon or Set on the majority of your turns, and that your boss monster is Special Summoned 9 times out of 10, but the first assumptions are the important ones. Exodia entirely subverts all of these, which invalidates half of your opponent's Deck. Alternate win conditions are only good design if they're basically a gimmicky version of the basic play style (Exodius comes to mind as being the best attempt at alt-win.) or are a fundamental part of the game (e.g., any Deck can reasonably accomplish it.) Yugioh has none of the second form, and it would be very awkward to add one at this point.

Usually, Exodia Decks barely pay attention to your opponent unless they're running something like Droll & Lock or Veiler against a Library Deck, and even then, any opponent would make the same use of those cards - the Exodia player literally ignores his opponent's skill. This is stupid. Exodius is about as close as you'll get to Exodia done right. Following the game's usual design of Summoning, attacking, and defending your cards can make it far more interactive. Trying to be especially odd and making the cards 'different' to 'normal Decks' is a recipe for terrible design and gameplay.

[Agro]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1347937605' post='6027035']
@Agro: I'm with you that Exodia is a horrid concept which should be buried and never returned to, but I believe Gorz has some very solid design principles. That's a debate for another time.
[/quote]I'll see you in TCG for this one.

[Zowayix]

Attempt #7, taking the above into consideration:

Change Exodia's effect to:
"During your Main Phase 1, if you control no Spell/Trap Cards, you can reveal this card to target 1 "Forbidden One" monster in your hand; reveal that target, it is now your End Phase, and that target stays revealed until it leaves your hand. When [all 5 pieces] are revealed in your hand through this card's effect, you win the Duel."

(Clarification because I'm not 100% how to word the effect properly: Exodia's head temporarily reveals itself (so the opponent knows you have it) and permanently reveals a piece once per turn. At the beginning of the 4th turn, you'll have the head, 1 unrevealed piece, and 3 revealed pieces. Temporarily reveal the head to permanently reveal the 4th piece. Now all 5 pieces are revealed. You win the Duel.)

Requires that you give your opponent at least 3 free turns where you have minimal protection in order to win. Vaguely similar to Destiny Leo in that regard.

[Agro]

Except Exodia can't be beaten by just about everything like Destiny Leo can.

You've still yet to acknowledge the most important part of balancing it. Which you'll never be able to do without making it unplayable: There is no player interaction.

A good deck using this will still run all the stall cards that Exodia already uses, and maybe more, just stalling it out until they're done. Not giving a sh*t about what you're opponent's doing.

You can't balance a card that's broken on principle. You just can't.

I suggest you read the thread I linked to. You can find it at the top of Written Cards. It'll do you good.

[Zowayix]

How do you stall if you must give your opponent 3 turns where you have no backrow? Would that qualify as player interaction?

Using your player interaction argument, does Destiny Board have player interaction? What about Empty Jar.dek? What about Horakhty? What about the Flint Lock Loop? What about The World lockdown?

I've read that thread thoroughly more than once; it's very interesting, and I agree with it 100%. I'm trying to make Exodia follow those concepts while maintaining its flavor aspect.

[Agro]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1347940115' post='6027063']
How do you stall if you must give your opponent 3 turns where you have no backrow? Would that qualify as player interaction?

Using your player interaction argument, does Destiny Board have player interaction? What about Empty Jar.dek? What about Horakhty? What about the Flint Lock Loop? What about The World lockdown?

I've read that thread thoroughly more than once; it's very interesting, and I agree with it 100%. I'm trying to make Exodia follow those concepts while maintaining its flavor aspect.
[/quote]Destiny Board doesn't, Empty Jar doesn't, Horakhty doesn't, Flint Lock doesn't, The World Doesn't. And they all shouldn't exist for the same reason that Exodia should not or are so bad that it doesn't matter.

What I'm saying is that you can't maintain the flavor without keeping what's specifically wrong with the card.

And you obviously don't even play Exodia, because you'd know that about every card it runs is chainable and can be activated on the Opponent's turn so that you have an open field on yours.

[Zowayix]

How do you chain any cards with no backrow?