byak Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 - It requires less skill to play well than ygo - When two players who understand the game play each other, the amount of skill makes no difference on who wins, but the amount of triggers do - The trigger mechanic is the worst mechanic for this game - Deck building is extremely linear and hardly affects the outcome unless you suck at building a deck. You are rarely rewarded for innovative deckbuilding - Official tournaments play single rounds, not 2/3 thoughts I'm pretty sure some people already believe this, but I'm just stating the facts for others who want to get into the competitive game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 I truly believe in points 2, 4, and 5. Five is an easy fix and four is near impossible. Two doesn't have to be a bad thing imo, depends on who I'm playing. Haven't played competitively, but I do know that CFV has taught me how to be relaxed even if I'm getting sacked super hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 I feel like triggers could be redesigned to make them not stupid at least crits. they're the most problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Not Heals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolfjedi Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 he says crits because it lets you hit for extra damage on a shield breaking double trigger or an unguarded vg attack. which should teach you to proper guard that vg late game every time.of course, crits are the early game threat we don't like, because you know, that everyone has ran into the double crit on 3 situation, however, I say the real late game threat, is stands and stand like abilites, breaking that limit of 3 attacks a turn late game, ends the game much faster. not to mention that most clans that do this, have this effect in extreme amounts, for example, pale moon can potentially turn a 0-5 damage fight into a otk victory if they deplete their opponent's hand.by the way, if you really want an edge in competitive play, only run 3 perfect guards. because everyone seems to expect 4, and as long as you keep a 2 card hand leftover, they will not usually fully commit, expecting that 4th perfect to block all their hard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Except that you now have less effective shielding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love of Ghibli Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well I don't agree with points 1,2,3. As for 4 and 5 the linear deck building I'm kind of split on. I mean there isn't that much love for multi-clan decks outside of MLB (worst deck in the game imo) so I guess I can see that. As for 5...well I learned something new. My locals go best two out of three (or so I'm told) so to hear official is just a one shot buster is..weird. But I guess a CFV match can last quite while if the conditions were met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Single round games are definitely why I can't play the game competitively, but everything else I disagree with. This game takes skill and prediction to play, much more than Yugioh in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted August 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Also, there is absolutely no outplaying in Vanguard (except for Tsukuyomi I guess) So how can you say that there is skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='βyakk' timestamp='1345271649' post='6009898'] Also, there is absolutely no outplaying in Vanguard (except for Tsukuyomi I guess) So how can you say that there is skill? [/quote] It takes skill to know that you generally don't ride a Grade 0 on top of your Grade 0, not to call your perfect defenders, and to always attack with your Vanguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1345299674' post='6010023'] It takes skill to know that you generally don't ride a Grade 0 on top of your Grade 0, not to call your perfect defenders, and to always attack with your Vanguard. [/quote] There are several cases where I can think of reasons as to why you would do those actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1345300245' post='6010027'] Tell me. [/quote] Royal Paladins would ride a Grade 0 on Barcgal in order to move Barcgal out, collect the pieces required for the superior ride and then instantly superior ride as soon as they rip the Grade 1. Perfect Defenders are one of the better early game rides, as they do not mess with your rearguard pressure while also being at a number that you don't often care for that early in the game when you want to take damage. The reason why most decks play 4 is so that this becomes a more common occurrence whilst also not hindering the number of perfect defenses you have left in the deck. Also, 6k boosters are good for a final turn push because 6k is still a pretty good number if you lack other options. You don't want to attack with the Vanguard in some instances in a deck such as Dark Irregular when the game gets really late because of the fact that a Vanguard attack could potentially put you on the very edge of decking out and therefore make it so that you're fighting an uphill battle against the clock. Also, the most skill that Vanguard requires overall is knowing when it's worth to take a gamble / being able to do statistics in your head. That's literally it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Kokonoe' timestamp='1345300530' post='6010028'] Also, the most skill that Vanguard requires overall is knowing when it's worth to take a gamble / being able to do statistics in your head. That's literally it. [/quote] Still more than Yugioh requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1345300918' post='6010031'] Still more than Yugioh requires. [/quote] Only March 2012. Sep 2012 seems as if it'll be a lot better in the skill department imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marisa Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Sorry for barging in >.<, a long time not visiting this forum. There are skill involved and as long the card maker still issue new cards with new rules. About Vanguard that i don't like is the critical system. The whopping 5k right off the bat, it even outpowered some of grade 0 monsters initial attack point. But even I said so, I do believe that the designer can remodel the Vanguard and approach the game with subtler system making it more competitive and less than just trigger luck in the future. Just like the old yugi, it just a brash card game involves only luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love of Ghibli Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Yu-gi-oh really has become a game of just swarm the field through any medium you can and either win at that moment or win later. There isn't much skill in that. Sure it is more intricate than anything you can do in vanguard but it wouldn't say it is more skillful. In Vanguard hand advantage is a serious cold calculating concept for it is your only method of defense 9.5 times out 10 whereas Yu-gi-oh (March 2012) drop your hand and kill and don't worry if you didn't really kill them because you've set up so much field presence that you've pretty much won already. As for this trigger hate...I just don't vibe with it. You could easily do some blackjack math and gather whether or not you're going to get a trigger (especially late game). If you paid attention to what's going on your opponents field and what they defend with you should be able to glean the same thing. The fact that there are so many decks in the CFV meta lead me to say that skill is involved in playing...Whereas there are an arguable..6 (I say 4) meta decks in any given Yu-gi-oh format. That everyone just uses and tries to change one or two cards in the build and say's they're innovative. Not what I would consider skillful at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Luck is a huge factor. I beat Bermuda with Aleph Kagero by sacking super hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love of Ghibli Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Well that just seems to be the root issue. Luck is a huger factor in Vanguard than in Yu-Gi-Oh which is fine with me because it gets annoying playing yu-gi-oh and knowing the game is already over at turn 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 I played a game today where the opponent was so strapped for attackers, and I got so many heals, that I only guarded [i]one[/i] time (and only because of possible Critical). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 People are finally catching on to the fact Vanguard is horrible? Good. since I'm sorta in the habit of C/D'ing to express my opinions. [quote name='βyakk' timestamp='1345055495' post='6007287'] - It requires less skill to play well than ygo [color=#008000][b]Confirm.[/b][/color] - When two players who understand the game play each other, the amount of skill makes no difference on who wins, but the amount of triggers do [color=#008000][b]Confirm.[/b][/color] - The trigger mechanic is the worst mechanic for this game [color=#008000][b]Confirm.[/b][/color] - Deck building is extremely linear and hardly affects the outcome unless you suck at building a deck. You are rarely rewarded for innovative deckbuilding [color=#008000][b]Confirm.[/b][/color] - Official tournaments play single rounds, not 2/3 [b][color=#008000]Confirm.[/color][/b] [/quote] There literally is [i]no [/i]skill in vanguard at all, minus Tsukuyomi, which has been replaced by Soulless OTT. Cards get outclassed [i]far[/i] too quickly, look at Bermudas. They got creeped out by the [i]set of the meta they where designed in. [/i]Honestly, Bermudas are the only clan I like, and Bushi seems to love making boring Paladin cards instead of giving underused clans like Bermudas some love. Right now, Bermudas are the [i]worst playable clan. [/i]Even Tachikaze are better post BT08. Hell, Murakumo are getting more support in BT09, what about Bermudas? why don't you make them their good cards? There's only like 3 REALISTICIALLY good cards in the Bermuda clan, Rio, Rena and Flores. Too bad Bouncing is bad. Honestly, I really like Bermudas, but if I have to play them in a format overrun by herpderp dote and herpderp duke, I'd rather play Zeels in Pokemon. Atleast there, we have multiple decks doing well, and new things arise pretty quickly. Not just anything named Paladin, Kagero etc tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 The point isn't "Vanguard is bad", its that "tournament level Vanguard is bad". The game is designed to give everyone a fighting chance. Now that's not a bad thing itself, but when the difference between a vet a semi-intelligent beginner is trigger pulls then it leaves a bitter taste. It could be fixed if Bushi wanted too, but they have never cared much for the competitive scene in their games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Fascist Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Games sorta flop without a competetive scene though. People get into it, realise it's just a bunch of sacking and there is no real depth and leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I'm pretty sure it helps, but I'm going to say that having an anime does a lot more for sells than a competitive scene ever would. Most (all?) of Bushi's games have been going on for a while and their competitive scenes are relatively the same, or so I was told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 [quote name='Јordan' timestamp='1347767626' post='6025971'] Games sorta flop without a competetive scene though. People get into it, realise it's just a bunch of sacking and there is no real depth and leave. [/quote] Except a lot of people have realized that it's a bunch of sacking, but still see it as a fun casual game to play and stay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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