Here's Something Useful For Bahamut Shark [SINGLE]

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

Skeletal Shark
WATER/Zombie/Xyz/Rank 3/2200 ATK/1400 DEF
2 Level 3 monsters
No Effect

It's a retraining of [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Corroding_Shark"]this[/url].
Discuss.

[Blake]

No, it's terribly designed.

First off, vannila monsters are, generally, worse design than monsters with the exact same stats, attribute, and type that have an effect. It means ALL they can do is become beatsticks and/or fodder. In this case, it's absolutely sublime fodder for Bahamut Shark. It's a free 2200 beater that lets you plus off of things like Atlantean Dragon Riders and to make advantage at least break even. It's not broken, but, considering Bahamut exists, it's either badly or ignorantly designed.

And... that's not a retrain, it's an evolution.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

*headdesk*
Well, since it is now very apparent I can't make cards worth anything, what would YOU have done?!?

[Blake]

Simple: Don't make support for horribly designed cards. You wouldn't make something to make Wind-Ups loop more easily, would you? So don't do anything to support Bahamut Shark any more than you would for Wind-Ups, Inzektors, or Chaos Dragons.

[newhat]

There's nothing WRONG with this card...

...it's Bahamut Shark that has the issues.

[Blake]

[quote name='newhat' timestamp='1343186597' post='5988231']
There's nothing WRONG with this card...

...it's Bahamut Shark that has the issues.
[/quote]
Designing a card while such a card exists means your card has issues. That's Card Design 101.

Besides, vanillas are bad design in general. Especially Vanilla Xyz.

[Agro]

Vanilla Xyz aren't terribly designed, Black.

Pearl is in no way terrible design.

[Blake]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1343187266' post='5988247']
Vanilla Xyz aren't terribly designed, Black.

Pearl is in no way terrible design.
[/quote]
It is bad design, but it's not in the same way that say, Bahamut Shark is. It's not banworthy in any way, but it's not solidly designed.

Vanillas in general are meh design because they're NOTHING but beaters. Add onto it, Vanilla Xyz completely go against the entire theme of the mechanic, showing a lack of care in design. This isn't like how Red Nova revolutionized Synchros, it just completely ignores the idea of giving a material for an effect that doesn't exist.

As a vanilla, it's either great or bad. But without Bahamut Shark, who would use the card in question over Leviathan Dragon? Vanillas are too all-or-nothing to be well designed, on their own.

[Agro]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1343187564' post='5988254']Add onto it, cards that access other cards from the banished pile completely go against the entire theme of the mechanic, showing a lack of care in design. This isn't like how Monster Reborn revolutionized the Graveyard, it just completely ignores the idea of keeping a monster out of play.
[/quote]Think I edited that right. The point is that a mechanic doesn't always have to be used the way it was intended, and it shouldn't, the game evolves.

Who's to say that you NEED to have to detach for an effect? A card being mediocre isn't bad design. Yes, this specific card is stupid because of Bahamut Shark, but it being a non-effect Monster on the side is not. There isn't really a problem with cards that are only beaters, especially if they have higher ATK than comparable Effect Monsters. Sure, they may not be the best cards, but that hardly makes them bad design.

[Blake]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1343188855' post='5988271']
Think I edited that right. The point is that a mechanic doesn't always have to be used the way it was intended, and it shouldn't, the game evolves.

Who's to say that you NEED to have to detach for an effect? A card being mediocre isn't bad design. Yes, this specific card is stupid because of Bahamut Shark, but it being a non-effect Monster on the side is not. There isn't really a problem with cards that are only beaters, especially if they have higher ATK than comparable Effect Monsters. Sure, they may not be the best cards, but that hardly makes them bad design.
[/quote]
You didn't, because you're comparing apples and oranges ._.

You don't. Tron's cards show that. But, to completely ignore their existence is bad design. I mean, it just opens up to "plzabusemekthx", given cards like Xyz Gift, Kurivolt, and the Nosferatus. No, Pearl/Gaga/This aren't excessively abused by them for obvious reasons, but the potential is there, instead of weighing "Give up an effect for this or keep effect".

Vanillas are bad design because ALL they can do is beat things down, on their own. They're either completely outclassed (Uraby) or completely superior (Sabersaurus) to similar cards (Oxygeddon) based upon the game in general. Sabersaurus is always (or, almost always) going to be superior to Oxygeddon, but Uraby will generally be worse than both. Rescue Rabbit gives Uraby a leg up on Oxygeddon, but, at the core, Uraby's still worse than Oxygeddon. It just has abuse in Rabbit. At that, Uraby is still inferior to both Kabazauls and Sabersaurus, being a weak beater in the current game and nothing but. Vanillas are all or nothing.

The card in question is, as I said, completely outclassed outside of support for Bahamut Shark, which is badly designed. WATER? R3 Beater? Leviathan Dragon covers both of those much better.

[Agro]

Well, I'll agree that making a Non-effect monster is a bit pointless and bad design only because there's probably going to be a better card. Ignoring broken cards like Bahamut and Rescue Rabbit, there's not much to do with a Normal Monster if there's another one with higher ATK. With that in mind, one may as well make the highest ATK monster they can for a certain type, Attr, archetype, etc. and be done with it.

Still, just because something like Pearl doesn't let you make the choice between using something like Xyz Gift and using an effect isn't bad design. Rather, I see it as a balanced advantage over Xyz Monsters with an effect. Kind of like how you can use a card in a certain deck, but using it in another deck increases its usability. It's not bad design, it's how the game should be designed. Giving small little advantages to normal monsters like that is perfectly acceptable. It encourages people to play more variety without it getting completely broken so that it does the exact opposite (for example, with Rabbit).

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Well, really, making up a non-effect monster like this is just kind of pointless, no offense, since you could have just said "It could use one with 2200 ATK, that would be cool" in the Bahamut Shark thread. If it actually had an effect that it -could- have used, then maybe it would mean something, though with its intention it is a bit silly. However, think of it from the standpoint of the anime/manga. They use a lot of cards for things without every activating their effects, but they still have them.