Tattered Signer Dragons

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

The [b]"Tattered"[/b] archetype ([i]"Sentō de kizutsui"[/i] or "Battle-Scarred" in Japanese) are a group of retrains of the Signer Dragons used by Itsu Fudo (an OC of mine) that have enhanced abilities at a very interesting cost. They are all Synchro Monsters, with no supporting cards. The monsters appear to be similar to their normal counterparts, but their designs have battle scars and various partially-healed wounds on their bodies and armor. Their stances are also different, displaying a weariness to them, as if they have been through many battles. They essentially run off of Synchro Monsters, and can even negate their own effects for a turn, during either player's turn, to receive the effects of another Synchro Monster that is in the Graveyard. They also have improved effects of the original monsters, and count as the originals for card effects.

Tattered Stardust Dragon
WIND/Dragon/Synchro/Level 8/2500 ATK/2000 DEF
1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When you Synchro Summon this card: Send 1 Level 8 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck to the Graveyard. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Synchro Monster in your Graveyard and decrease this monster's ATK and DEF by 500; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Stardust Dragon". Once per turn, during either player's turn, when a Spell, Trap, Spell/Trap effect, or Effect Monster's effect is activated that destroys a card(s) on the field: You can Tribute this face-up card; negate the activation and destroy it.

Tattered Red Dragon Archfiend
DARK/Dragon/Synchro/Level 8/3000 ATK/2000 DEF
1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When you Synchro Summon this card: Send 1 Level 8 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck to the Graveyard. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Synchro Monster in your Graveyard and decrease this monster's ATK and DEF by 500; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Red Dragon Archfiend". If this card attacks a Defense Position monster, inflict piercing Battle Damage to your opponent.

Tattered Black Rose Dragon
FIRE/Dragon/Synchro/Level 7/2400 ATK/1800 DEF
1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When you Synchro Summon this card: Send 1 Level 8 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck to the Graveyard. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Synchro Monster in your Graveyard and decrease this monster's ATK and DEF by 500; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Black Rose Dragon". Once per turn, during your Main Phase: Target 1 face-up monster your opponent controls and Banish 1 Monster Card from your Graveyard; make the ATK of the target 0 and, if the target is in Defense Position, change it to Attack Position.

Tattered Ancient Fairy Dragon
LIGHT/Dragon/Synchro/Level 7/2100 ATK/3000 DEF
1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When you Synchro Summon this card: Send 1 Level 8 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck to the Graveyard. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Synchro Monster in your Graveyard and decrease this monster's ATK and DEF by 500; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Ancient Fairy Dragon". While this card is face-up on the field in Attack Position, once per turn during your Main Phase, you can Normal Summon a Level 4 or lower monster in addition to your Normal Summon or Set. (You can only gain this effect once per turn.)

Tattered Black-Winged Dragon
DARK/Dragon/Synchro/Level 8/2800 ATK/1600 DEF
1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When you Synchro Summon this card: Send 1 Level 8 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck to the Graveyard. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Synchro Monster in your Graveyard and decrease this monster's ATK and DEF by 500; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Black-Winged Dragon". Any Effect Damage you would take from an opponent's card effect is inflicted to your opponent instead.

Tattered Life Stream Dragon
EARTH/Dragon/Synchro/Tuner/Level 8/2900 ATK/2400 DEF
1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When you Synchro Summon this card: Send 1 Level 8 or lower Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck to the Graveyard. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Synchro Monster in your Graveyard and decrease this monster's ATK and DEF by 500; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Life Stream Dragon". Once per turn, during your Main Phase: You can make the Levels of all face-up Synchro Monsters become 4 until the End Phase.

Discuss, and if I made any OCG errors, or made them too powerful, please let me know.

[byak]

[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)][quote]Tattered Life Stream Dragon[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]EARTH/Dragon/Synchro/Tuner/Level 8/2900 ATK/2400 DEF[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]When you Synchro Summon this card: Banish 1 Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck. Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase: You can target 1 Banished Synchro Monster; Until the next End Phase, negate this monster's effects, and this monster gains the effect(s) of the target. This card's name is always treated as "Life Stream Dragon". Once per turn, if your Life Points are 2000 or less: You can make your Life Points become 4000. Once per turn, during your Main Phase: You can make the Levels of all face-up Synchro Monsters become 4 until the End Phase[/quote][/background][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Level Eater + Symbols of Heritage abuse[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

[quote name='byakksmodeus' timestamp='1342815854' post='5983972']
[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Level Eater + Symbols of Heritage abuse[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
...I don't get it...
Could you please explain?

[byak]

Summon TLSD, Level Eater it, summon another TLSD, Level Eater it, summon the third TLSD, Level Eater it, make any Synchro, play Symbols of Heritage to bring back TLSD at any time to make any other level 8 synchro.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

And how would you get out the TLSDs so quickly?

[byak]

Level 7 TLSD + Level Eater = TLSD

[Love of Ghibli]

[quote name='byakksmodeus' timestamp='1342815854' post='5983972']


[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(251, 253, 254)]Level Eater + Symbols of Heritage abuse[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

Have Hyper Librarian on the field first lol

[Mugendramon]

[quote name='TheFinalFan' timestamp='1342823128' post='5984084']
And how would you get out the TLSDs so quickly?
[/quote]

Level Eater targets TLSD and reduces its Level.

You now have a Level 7 Tuner and a Level 1 non-Tuner!

Hm, what Level 8 to make...

Ah, I have this generic Level 8 Synchro Tuner I can make...


Level Eater targets the newly Summoned TLSD and reduces its Level.

You now have a Level 7 Tuner and a Level 1 non-Tuner!

[byak]

I also hate the design of these cards. They basically say "hey, let's make it so whenever you can summon a level 8 synchro, you can make any synchro in the game and give it 3000 ATK!"

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

[quote name='byakksmodeus' timestamp='1342825311' post='5984112']
I also hate the design of these cards. They basically say "hey, let's make it so whenever you can summon a level 8 synchro, you can make any synchro in the game and give it 3000 ATK!"
[/quote]
Don't Synchros need something strong enough to fight Xyzs anyways?

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Each and every one of these cards is broken, in my opinion. You can basically summon any of them to get any Synchro you want, or use their own powerful effect. They generate advantage out the wazoo, too. I guess the only benefit of the effect of your Stardust and the old one is that yours can be destroyed, whilst the original Stardust is already in the grave after its effect goes off. That doesn't really change much, though.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

Alright, then. How can I make them less broken?
I mean, I realize I might've made them a bit too powerful, but I don't really see why you all are complaining so much. What's wrong with more powerful Synchros to combat Xyzs, which are quickly outclassing the Synchros?

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Making something broken is never a good thing. There should not be a point where we have to say "Unless we make all these cards too powerful, they are not any good compared to X". You can still make a good card without it being completely unbalanced.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

So...how do I make them balanced?
You didn't answer that question.

[Mugendramon]

[quote name='TheFinalFan' timestamp='1342834373' post='5984270']
Don't Synchros need something strong enough to fight Xyzs anyways?
[/quote]

You can't make Galaxy Robo with two Level 2s.

But with these you can make Quasar with a Salvage Warrior.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

[quote name='Ｍｕｇｅｎｄｒａｍｏｎ' timestamp='1342838705' post='5984337']
You can't make Galaxy Robo with two Level 2s.

But with these you can make Quasar with a Salvage Warrior.
[/quote]
...How do you make SQD with Salvage Warrior and Tattered LSD?
Also, why is no one offering advice on how to fix these guys?

[Mugendramon]

[quote name='TheFinalFan' timestamp='1342844510' post='5984408']
...How do you make SQD with Salvage Warrior and Tattered LSD?
Also, why is no one offering advice on how to fix these guys?
[/quote]

Not necessarily TLSD. Any of these can do that, provided you make them. I mean, Salvage Warrior brings a Level 2 Tuner, you make TAFD, and banish Quasar. Boom it's Quasar.

And, what do you mean fixing? They're the signer dragons with an extra, broken effect. To fix them, one would say "remove that effect", but the thing is you'd be left with the signer dragons, that is to say nothing new.

So, they can't be fixed. Redesign them completely.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

OK...How would you redesign them?

[Dr. Cakey]

Do one, probably more than one, of the following:

1. Adjust their effects. Right now they have [i]stronger [/i]effects than the Signer dragons. Make them weaker effects.

2. Reduce their ATK. Since they're 'damaged', they could have slightly less ATK.

3. Give them a drawback, like paying 1000 LP to attack. Or, how about this? They require you to banish a monster from your Extra Deck when they attack instead of when they're summoned, so if you're out of monsters, you can no longer attack.

4. Make them only able to copy, say, Level 8 or lower Dragon-Type Synchro Monsters.

5. Determine a way to designate which monster effects get copies and replaced. As written, I could continually cycle between two banished Tattered monsters by selecting one with the original effect, then using the effect of the copied monster to target the second, then using that one's effect to target the first. It's not enormously broken because for the most part they don't have once-per-turn effects, but it would allow me to, say, turn my opponent's entire field to 0 ATK monsters, Normal Summon twice, return my Life Points to 4000, and then protect myself from destruction effects.

6. One way to fix that might be to make Battle-scarred a monster subtype (as in [Dragon/Synchro/Battle-Scarred], so that identifying which effects are copied and which aren't are part of the game's rules.

7. You could also drop the banishing mechanic entirely and have them copy Synchro Monsters in the graveyard, which would, I think, fit their theme.

Xyz Monsters aren't better than Synchros because they're more powerful - generally speaking, I'd rather have Stardust, Scrap Dragon, or Brionac than virtually any Xyz. Only Ranks 5 and above have monsters than can equal the muscle of Synchros, and even then a lot of them don't. Xyz Monsters are better because they're more flexible. I might want to nuke my opponent's swarm, but if all I have is a Spirit Reaper and a Plaguespreader, that's not going to happen. But with Xyz Monsters, I have the monsters I summon with Tour Guide, and the monsters I summon with the rest of my Extra Deck (or, my Rank 3's and Rank 4's, unless the deck has some particular quirk). Synchro-ing gives me one or two, maybe three options. Constructing the Overlay Network should give me five or six choices of monster.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Cakey hit the nail on the head with his post. I hadn't made a suggestion because I was too tired at the time. Really, they have to be limited in their effects, or their scheme changed in some way that makes it not so easy to take advantage of.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

Alright. I'll get to redesigning them.
But, and please be honest, in their current state, would you actually use these monsters?

[Mugendramon]

[quote name='TheFinalFan' timestamp='1342921425' post='5985056']
Alright. I'll get to redesigning them.
But, and please be honest, in their current state, would you actually use these monsters?
[/quote]

Well, given how broken they can get, obviously.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

I fixed them.
Are they alright, now?