Frunk Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Clubs & Organisations was never a good idea. Much of the content in that forum is very-low quality, chat-style discussion. Any topics being discussed in Clubs & Organisations could easily be discussed (and probably are being discussed) elsewhere on the site, without the need for "leaders" or "membership" that create an unhealthy atmosphere of elitism. It is also extremely difficult to moderate, given the large amount of content. For example, a club about Pokemon would be more efficiently moderated by a Multimedia moderator, while a General moderator may not be as accustomed with what is and what is not acceptable in relation to the discussion of said topics, while other Clubs/Organisations are downright pointless. I suggest that there is no positive benefit in retaining Clubs & Organisations and therefore it should be removed. Supporters: Frunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simping For Hina Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 This is bad...April Fool's was yesterday...he means it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Daemon' timestamp='1333421446' post='5899762'] This is bad...April Fool's was yesterday...he means it. [/quote] Nah don't worry, without an active admin on Suggestions mean nothing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fusion X. Denver Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 None of your points are really wrong, but I think C&O is essential for building the community and adding an immersing experience for newcomers. I don't know about everyone, but mostly every single friend/acquaintance of mine on here are people I met through clubs. Clubs was also where I found my comfort zone. I used to focus on commenting on Pop Culture cards with hopes that one day I'd gain recognition by the majority of the site (I was a real newblet for sure). Of course I've long abandoned CC, but regardless, Clubs had me talking with all sorts of different people with mutual interests that led to lasting friendships and even changes to my life (some are even Facebook friends). The thing about Clubs is it's a totally different atmosphere than those from the discussion forums. The very fact that you can get away with posting "spam" for the most part both lets people fully express themselves and getting to know each other better. And being in a club can give one a sense of belonging, and lots of kids on the internet probably need that feeling. You could argue that Status Updates can fulfill this, but I see it as more of an X Factor since most statuses end up in joking around or flame wars, or not being commented on at all. The thing about YCM that makes it different from other forums is we have a very...interesting, unique and diverse community where most of us are comfortable with one another and have found places and ways to express ourselves. For a lot of people, I believe Clubs were what helped us get started and keep us going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunk Posted April 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 While you may have made friends, many other people may have missed out. Clubs & Organisations is a sub-forum. I find it hard to believe it is a Mecca for newcomers, simply because it's so hard to find. Why would a new-comer view Clubs & Organisations to discuss Minecraft before checking Video Games? Why can a thread not function as a club without being in the Clubs & Organisations forum? That, at least, would be more appropriate. The point remains also that the very definition of a club is exclusive, not inclusive. The General forum, and the Multimedia forums are where the content of Clubs & Organisations can be discussed in essentially the same (but surely more productive due to the higher content standards, and no membership requirements) manner, without the issues I've already mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simping For Hina Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Clubs and Organizations are more of a selective community, sure that is not wrong. Most people usually like it that way, I do, and the clubs are clustered with too many people like other threads used to be. They are a place where you can usually let go and just have a fun time with more specific topics, whereas the threads are broad topics. You can always go to the multimedia thread to talk. A club is used for the people who frequent it. It is a comfort zone for people. New members usually don't find it. I liked it that way. They develop themselves before entering a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Origins Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 While we're at it why don't we remove TCG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra of Ages Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 It's a popular enough feature here and I see few enough problems emanating from it that I don't see a particular point to axing it. Redundant? Perhaps, but people seem to like it and it's not as if it's using up valuable resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarven King Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Clubs are for more laid back discussions. Threads have to stay EXACTLY on topic or they get locked. See where I'm going with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vairocana Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 You should make a club about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fusion X. Denver Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333423788' post='5899811'] While you may have made friends, many other people may have missed out. Clubs & Organisations is a sub-forum. I find it hard to believe it is a Mecca for newcomers, simply because it's so hard to find. Why would a new-comer view Clubs & Organisations to discuss Minecraft before checking Video Games? [/quote] I'll give you this, even I didn't find it on my own, a member PMed me to join his club and that's when I went looking for myself. [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333423788' post='5899811'] Why can a thread not function as a club without being in the Clubs & Organisations forum? That, at least, would be more appropriate. [/quote] Well, if we did that, wouldn't said threads become cluttered with "spam" just as the rest of the threads in C&O? The only difference is everything would be more spread out amongst all the forums rather than gathered in one place. I mean, you could go through with it, but I don't think it'd have any ultimate impact. [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333423788' post='5899811'] The point remains also that the very definition of a club is exclusive, not inclusive. [/quote] That I disagree with. I've always found most clubs to be open and accepting for new members; a lot of clubs have made it so you can just ask to join without filling an app. The only times I've seen people rejected were people who have made trouble in other parts of the forum before and even then, most of them were given a chance. [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333423788' post='5899811'] The General forum, and the Multimedia forums are where the content of Clubs & Organisations can be discussed in essentially the same (but surely more productive due to the higher content standards, and no membership requirements) manner, without the issues I've already mentioned. [/quote] Yeah, what you say is true, but all of the subject material would focus on the topic at hand and a lot less friends would be made that way. When I look back on getting to know most of the people I have, it was from getting to know each other through club discussions that had the liberty to branch off-topic like IRL convos do, to me that's its charm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormented Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 The main point is C&O give people the option to be free and to discuss whatever they want where as if they were to post it in Media they would have that fear of people who aren't willing to accept their point or the scare that they could be banned or warned. C&O in my opinion is one of the greater assets of YCM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunk Posted April 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Hanako Ikezawa' timestamp='1333424850' post='5899824'] While we're at it why don't we remove TCG? [/quote] I don't know enough about the issues with that forum. Feel free to make a new suggestion thread! [quote name='Dwarven King' timestamp='1333426140' post='5899834'] Clubs are for more laid back discussions. Threads have to stay EXACTLY on topic or they get locked. See where I'm going with this? [/quote] Yes, well, personally I have an issue with how some threads aren't allowed to stray at least in a small way. My primary concern is that it is an extremely difficult section to moderate. [quote name='Vairocana' timestamp='1333426593' post='5899835'] You should make a club about it. [/quote] That would be counter-productive. [quote name='Fusion X. Denver' timestamp='1333427634' post='5899842'] Well, if we did that, wouldn't said threads become cluttered with "spam" just as the rest of the threads in C&O? The only difference is everything would be more spread out amongst all the forums rather than gathered in one place. I mean, you could go through with it, but I don't think it'd have any ultimate impact. [/quote] The difference is in moderation. You can't expect a Clubs & Organisations moderator to be interested in all the threads that exist in that forum. An interest in the topic is vital to effective moderation. While there are certainly some clubs that are much too lacking in quality content, on the whole I have no issue with clubs with quality content, but wouldn't you, as a Clubs & Organisations user, prefer that clubs were just normal threads in their proper category, with no risk of exclusivity and also easier to for members less-versed in how this site works to find, thus making it possible for greater discussion? [quote name='Fusion X. Denver' timestamp='1333427634' post='5899842'] That I disagree with. I've always found most clubs to be open and accepting for new members; a lot of clubs have made it so you can just ask to join without filling an app. The only times I've seen people rejected were people who have made trouble in other parts of the forum before and even then, most of them were given a chance. [/quote] I suppose this is a moot argument. Indeed, exclusivity does not exist in all cases, but you cannot deny it does in some. We could enact stricter rules to how clubs are run, but personally I don't see the point. [quote name='Fusion X. Denver' timestamp='1333427634' post='5899842'] Yeah, what you say is true, but all of the subject material would focus on the topic at hand and a lot less friends would be made that way. When I look back on getting to know most of the people I have, it was from getting to know each other through club discussions that had the liberty to branch off-topic like IRL convos do, to me that's its charm. [/quote] I believe that members could still connect on a personal level without clubs, as that is what happened before Clubs & Organisations existed. As I said above, in some cases I have seen, moderators can be too strict on off-topic discussion. I believe we can find the perfect situation. All it will take is the encouragement of the staff to be more lenient, which is certainly possible. [quote name='Tormented' timestamp='1333462168' post='5900034'] The main point is C&O give people the option to be free and to discuss whatever they want where as if they were to post it in Media they would have that fear of people who aren't willing to accept their point or the scare that they could be banned or warned. C&O in my opinion is one of the greater assets of YCM. [/quote] I completely fail to agree with your post. Not willing to accept others' points? The fundamental purpose of a forum is for the sharing and representation of all ideas. To have a private community for fear of alternative viewpoints that you may not agree with is not something I think is good at all. Members should only be scared of being warned or banned if they break the rules. Is that happening in Clubs & Organisations?! If so, then all the more reason for its removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [img]http://arch.413chan.net/Spike_-_Oh_wait_you%27re_serious-(n1303714488970).jpg[/img] Unless YCMaker logs on for no reason and starts caring about your (or anyone's) opinion, you're out of luck Frunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Rhodes Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [size=4]Lets be fair here, without [color=#666666][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Clubs & Organisations[/font][/color] YCM would be dead and everyone knows that.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astolfo Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [color=#000066][b]I support. Frunk getting real, and actually thinking about the chances of C&O getting axed and/or the chances of YCMaker actually bothering to remove the section. Besides, didn't the mods ban YCMaker, which could mean you took part in it as well? Then if so, why would he still bother?[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunk Posted April 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Comrade Trollestia' timestamp='1333463814' post='5900054'] Unless YCMaker logs on for no reason and starts caring about your (or anyone's) opinion, you're out of luck Frunk. [/quote] I'll take that under advisement, thanks. [quote name='Alexis Rhodes' timestamp='1333463822' post='5900055'] Lets be fair here, without [color=#666666][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Clubs & Organisations[/font][/color] YCM would be dead and everyone knows that. [/quote] I strongly disagree. [quote name='.nova' timestamp='1333464046' post='5900059'] [color=#000066][b]I support. Frunk getting real, and actually thinking about the chances of C&O getting axed and/or the chances of YCMaker actually bothering to remove the section. Besides, didn't the mods ban YCMaker, which could mean you took part in it as well? Then if so, why would he still bother?[/b][/color] [/quote] YCMaker has not, was not, and literally [i]cannot[/i] be, banned by anyone. I don't know where you got that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Rhodes Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333464138' post='5900060'] I strongly disagree. [/quote] Ok. So remove them then, also if you cant remove them yourself what's the point in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunk Posted April 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Alexis Rhodes' timestamp='1333464396' post='5900062'] Ok. So remove them then, also if you cant remove them yourself what's the point in this thread? [/quote] The point of this thread is for logical discussion on the issue and God forbid the finding a solution. Also, I don't share the scepticism that YCMaker will never provide any changes to this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 The point of C&O is to allow a static place for expression where people can have conversations without having to make a new thread every time the topic is changed. Plus, if you notice, Clubs stay active way longer than any other thread. The most important point is that people really enjoy clubs and they aren't really causing serious harm. If your main concern is inappropriate content or spam, then perhaps another mod should be appointed to C&O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astolfo Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [color=#000066][b]Oh look. No more C&O. Say hi to 50k threads per day.[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fusion X. Denver Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333462827' post='5900043'] The difference is in moderation. You can't expect a Clubs & Organisations moderator to be interested in all the threads that exist in that forum. An interest in the topic is vital to effective moderation. While there are certainly some clubs that are much too lacking in quality content, on the whole I have no issue with clubs with quality content, but wouldn't you, as a Clubs & Organisations user, prefer that clubs were just normal threads in their proper category, with no risk of exclusivity and also easier to for members less-versed in how this site works to find, thus making it possible for greater discussion?[/quote] If that's the case, I propose more Mods to be appointed in moderating C&O. It's definitely too much for one person to handle. It's like how Icy took on all of CC, even he finally decided to appoint 2 other Mods. For me personally, I have mixed feelings. I like the open atmosphere for liberal discussion that's present in almost all clubs because there's no denying it's easier to make a post in a club than it is in a "public" thread. To the point of exclusion, I still believe the risk is low, but if you're denied joinage into a club, why would you want to continue bothering with the types of people that pride in excluding others? And I honestly think having the open atmosphere of clubs is what helps newer members transition into the community. It's up to the club "leaders" to ensure that the club's main topic is at the very least frequently discussed. You could say it's their responsibility to make sure new members are willfully integrated and show them the ropes. [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333462827' post='5900043'] I believe that members could still connect on a personal level without clubs, as that is what happened before Clubs & Organisations existed. As I said above, in some cases I have seen, moderators can be too strict on off-topic discussion. I believe we can find the perfect situation. All it will take is the encouragement of the staff to be more lenient, which is certainly possible.[/quote] I mean, it could be possible. Although, I'm currently a member of 2 other forums aside from this one and I haven't joined their clubs. I've seen some cool people around, but I don't see a lot of people being buddy-buddy with each other like they do here. Someone once suggested that post count be disabled in C&O like it is in Games, in the case that members are in Clubs for quick and easy post count. And the disabled post count can also suggest more of a liberal atmosphere like Games has. I'd say either that and/or appointing new Mods would be the best solution if any changes were to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Perhaps, but disabling post count would make it even more spammy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinnamonStar Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 I've decided to stay away from this thread on purpose, just to see where the discussion is going. This is just my personal view on it, so no guarantee for correctness. The thing some people don’t seem to get is that C/O has absolutely the same rules as any other section, with the additional fact that slightly more casual discussions are allowed and a few others differences I’m going to elaborate on. The difference at hand is mainly that in a Multimedia topic about Pokémon, you will have to stick with the current Pokémon game and not go beyond that. A C/O thread however allows to discuss multiple topics while also allowing members to make friends and talk about how your day has been for example. By multiple topics, I mean that rather than talking about the latest Pokémon game, you can talk about the franchise in general as well, possibly move over to another franchise that reminds you of at it, or about the company that creates the games or something else. Both Flame Dragon and I (at least when he used to moderate there) have been quite strict about the fact that a club MUST have some sort of topic and that said topic is basically the running thread, while also allowing discussions to stray away for some time. The points raised are perfectly acceptable, however some people make me wonder if they are very active in the section and know what is going on there, or if they just decide to look at the section and conclude that “nah I don’t like it”. No one is doing a perfectly flawless job at anything, but I do believe that improvement has taken place in the forum. My goal lately has been to increase posting quality and avoid the section going buckwild while still giving enough space for more casual discussions and allowing some lenience. At least this has been the feedback I got from some members and moderators. In addition, people seem to be under the impression that any and all clubs always have to be a General or Multimedia topic in disguise. This isn’t the case and the first examples that come to mind are the Dueling Network Reloaded club or the Newb Defense League (on a more personal basis, also the YCM Weekly show planning thread I made), though if you want me to elaborate on what makes these threads different from regular TCG/General threads, feel free to ask. A certain exclusivity will always be here, although I believe it is present in every section and has both its positive and negative aspects. However, all it requires is asking the club members if you can join and on literally every case I have witnessed so far, you were allowed to do so (unless you were an obvious alt account of a banned member or had never heard about the subject that was discussed). The application forms are generally just there to check if you know what the topic at hand is and if you can name some favourite Pokémon, you’re usually accepted into any Pokémon club. The certain amount of exclusivity has both positive and negative aspects. On a positive level, if I have the choice between immediately rolling into the TCG section for example and probably heading towards the danger of being rightfully called a n00b, or joining a TCG club that explicitly states that beginners are accepted and will be taught more about the game by more experienced players, then the TCG club that accepts beginners doesn’t sound quite bad. On a negative level however, things could become bad if members suddenly starting ganging up and stopped talking to anyone who isn’t part of their club, which has yet to happen here and most of us hope never will. In short, if C/O posters show up and plead for removing the section because it’s utterly stupid and shouldn’t exist, then I might “shut it down” (By shut it down, I mean making a huge notice about how it doesn’t exist anymore and deleting any thread that gets made afterwards. This is more or less all that could be done, since YCMaker getting online and removing the section won’t happen in this century). However, seeing as how it’s indeed a popular part of the site and people seem to enjoy making friends there, it would seem kind of…disheartening to take it away from them. I’ve always liked MarbleZone’s analogy here: A C/O thread isn’t a meeting of the staff of a soccer club, it’s more like the club members talking about the game in a café. As long as people enjoy discussing the soccer game afterwards in a café and there are no particular problems resulting from it on the site, I don’t support a removal of the section. tl;dr: Thread raises some good points and I’ll keep them in mind, but no support here. [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333421142' post='5899753'] For example, a club about Pokemon would be more efficiently moderated by a Multimedia moderator, while a General moderator may not be as accustomed with what is and what is not acceptable in relation to the discussion of said topics, while other Clubs/Organisations are downright pointless. [/quote] [quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1333462827' post='5900043'] You can't expect a Clubs & Organisations moderator to be interested in all the threads that exist in that forum. [/quote] Coming from someone who happens to be a moderator of 2 Multimedia sections and somehow likes following all the active threads that are posted, hi there! On the first point: I can see where you're going, but I fail to see what special mind skills beyond regular moderator qualifications are required to realize what is and what is not acceptable in relation to a discussion based on Pokémon. Bar the fact that I have played almost every game available so far besides the Black and White editions, I do believe that any other mod would be able to make the difference here. Let's say if one of us, for example me who completely left Yugioh, would go to TCG, I believe I would be able to notice when a discussion is appropriate and when it stops being so. The main reason why people get assigned to a certain section is because of their knowledge, experience or activity in that section. The main reason why any moderator gets promoted however should be the same for all these moderators and based on a similar set of qualifications they have, at least from my view. Although my opinion shouldn’t really matter, since I’m going to be back on my hiatus when my “spring break” (or the equivalent of it) is over and someone else will take over the forum. Technically, we were supposed to be 2 moderators for the section, but Flame Dragon isn’t nearly active enough. I will still moderate the section, but there will be a second mod who will hopefully be more active and there is already an existing mod who would be interested into branching over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunk Posted April 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 [quote name='Comrade Trollestia' timestamp='1333464720' post='5900065'] The point of C&O is to allow a static place for expression where people can have conversations without having to make a new thread every time the topic is changed. Plus, if you notice, Clubs stay active way longer than any other thread. The most important point is that people really enjoy clubs and they aren't really causing serious harm. If your main concern is inappropriate content or spam, then perhaps another mod should be appointed to C&O. [/quote] I have already suggested that their should be some give in the way moderators treat off-topic discussion. The recent appearance and prolonged existence of a lolicon club is very serious in my opinion, but as I have already clarified numerous times, inappropriate content and/or spam are not my [i]main[/i] concerns. [quote name='.nova' timestamp='1333464790' post='5900066'] [color=#000066][b]Oh look. No more C&O. Say hi to 50k threads per day.[/b][/color] [/quote] That is a ridiculous suggestion. Also, you've stated you're not worried because you believe it won't happen, yet you're making quite a fuss at the same time. If you're worried, contribute to this thread properly, a la by responding to my points, or, if you're not worried, cease to post here. [quote name='Fusion X. Denver' timestamp='1333464993' post='5900072'] If that's the case, I propose more Mods to be appointed in moderating C&O. It's definitely too much for one person to handle. It's like how Icy took on all of CC, even he finally decided to appoint 2 other Mods. For me personally, I have mixed feelings. I like the open atmosphere for liberal discussion that's present in almost all clubs because there's no denying it's easier to make a post in a club than it is in a "public" thread. To the point of exclusion, I still believe the risk is low, but if you're denied joinage into a club, why would you want to continue bothering with the types of people that pride in excluding others? And I honestly think having the open atmosphere of clubs is what helps newer members transition into the community. It's up to the club "leaders" to ensure that the club's main topic is at the very least frequently discussed. You could say it's their responsibility to make sure new members are willfully integrated and show them the ropes. [/quote] Have you ever heard the saying "too many cooks in the kitchen"? More moderators would certainly not solve the problem. Ideally a section should not have more than two moderators, in order for moderation to be consistent. Also, new moderators lack experience. There is no question that Clubs & Organisations is a complicated section that should not be given to rookie moderators when a better solution is to remove the section and spread out the workload to existing forums. Is pride a trait we really want to develop? Exclusion leads to prejudice. In reality, there is no reason that anyone should be excluded from any discussion, provided they abide by the rules of the forum. From what I have observed, Clubs & Organisations is almost an aristocracy. Members not involved in may very likely be intimidated, and less-inclined to try using that section. If that is the section that is best at developing personal relationships, why not spread clubs out to their appropriate sections to allow the community to integrate with each other? [quote name='Fusion X. Denver' timestamp='1333464993' post='5900072'] I mean, it could be possible. Although, I'm currently a member of 2 other forums aside from this one and I haven't joined their clubs. I've seen some cool people around, but I don't see a lot of people being buddy-buddy with each other like they do here. Someone once suggested that post count be disabled in C&O like it is in Games, in the case that members are in Clubs for quick and easy post count. And the disabled post count can also suggest more of a liberal atmosphere like Games has. I'd say either that and/or appointing new Mods would be the best solution if any changes were to be made. [/quote] I too don't see any benefit in disabling post counts. Post counts aren't nearly as relevant as they used to be, and nor should they be. @evilfusion: You've made some very good points. Clubs & Organisations was initially created for those threads that were not General or Multimedia topics (n.b.: Multimedia didn't exist in those days either). I have no issue with Clubs & Organisations existing for those threads, however I feel we should do as much as possible to allow for the wider community to participate in the discussion of the topics cover by the other type of Clubs & Organisations that are on General or Multimedia topics. In other words, I can see great benefit to changing things than retaining the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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