Should games today appeal to beginners, experts, or make an attempt at both?

[Resident Fascist]

So, It's of no doubt that games have gotten easier throughout the years. While it's not a bad thing, it can sometimes shoo away experts. A good example is marvel vs capcom 3 or many platformers, in general. The moment the player goes into level 3 X-Factor, more than likely that player has won.

So, I'm a in a bit of a dilemma. As you might know, the game I'm currently making(Paradox Alpha(cba with greek letter) Finale) has a system mechanic called Overlap Cancel, which basicially allows you cancel special moves into select specials and normals, I.e you can go:

Weak->Medium->Strong->Soul->Uppercut->Overlap Cancel->Air Grab

This, however takes 2 stocks of a player's Soul Stock meter. The input window is pretty large, allowing 5-7 frames in a majority of cases. The player is also given a visual cue in the fact that the player's character's sprite turns completely white during the frames a Overlap cancel can be performed. This is not the problem. The problem is the other type of Cancel, Forced Cancel. Forced Cancel is a high level play technique that works like the Overlap cancel, but there are 2 differences:[list=1]
[*]Overlap Cancel Points are always after the frame that hits. Forced Cancel is before.
[*]It's free.
[/list]
What use is Forced Cancel? Forced Cancel is present on a lot of Heavy and Special Attacks. During the period of startup, there will be 2-3 frames where your character flashes gold. At this point, you essentially do an overlap cancel. This allows you to perform very specific links and get specific attacks out quicker, such as

Fireball(Startup)->Uppercut

Now, the way the combo engine is laid out, Forced Cancel is needed in many Mid-Level combos, and this could be sorta jarring for beginners, so I was thinking about adding a beginner's help thing, that increases the frames to 4-7 for a Forced Cancel.

So, apart from my little dilema, what do you think about the way games are made today in terms of difficulty level.

[Agro]

To say that games should only do one of the choices you offered is a disgrace. Don't attempt to limit what it is that they can or should do.

Some games should be made for beginners, other games should be made for experts, and others should be made for both. There is no choice.

[Resident Fascist]

[quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1330533013' post='5847811']
To say that games should only do one of the choices you offered is a disgrace. Don't attempt to limit what it is that they can or should do.

Some games should be made for beginners, other games should be made for experts, and others should be made for both. There is no choice.
[/quote]

some games are obviously intended for beginners, but I guess you should be a mix of both.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1330533013' post='5847811']

Some games should be made for beginners, other games should be made for experts, and others should be made for both. There is no choice.
[/quote]

Pretty much this exactly.

In most cases, a game should be obvious which it's appealing to. Then ones which can appeal to both will either have easy or hard options, or they'll have a casual appeal and a competitive appeal.

Something tells me the only reason you even play games is to b**** about them, but you are (unfortunately) entitled to your opinion, which often you seem to think no one else is.

[Agro]

[quote name='Order-Sol' timestamp='1330533125' post='5847814']
some games are obviously intended for beginners, but I guess you should be a mix of both.
[/quote]That's not the point I was making.

[Resident Fascist]

[quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1330533181' post='5847816']
Something tells me the only reason you even play games is to b**** about them, but you are (unfortunately) entitled to your opinion, which often you seem to think no one else is.
[/quote]

I only b**** about capcom games
anyway, I guess I have both because forced cancel is way better as an option in like 75% of cases because it's free and it allows you to do more damage. I havn't played 1 Platformer that was challenging since like... forever, unfortunately. It feels more like a drag because it takes so long, rather than fun because it's challenging

[.Rai]

[quote]Should games today appeal to beginners, experts, or make an attempt at both?[/quote]

Whatever the developer decides to do. It's completely free rein, and there are absolutely no rules about this.

Depends on genre, predicted economic success, style of game, console, and tons of other stuff. Saying that every game should be one or the other, hell no.

[Just Crouton]

Easy mode exists for a reason.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='Order-Sol' timestamp='1330533338' post='5847821']
I only b**** about capcom games
[/quote]

[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/98vrfd.gif[/IMG]

[quote name='Order-Sol' timestamp='1330533338' post='5847821']
I havn't played 1 Platformer that was challenging since like... forever, unfortunately. It feels more like a drag because it takes so long, rather than fun because it's challenging
[/quote]

You just aren't looking hard enough.

[Resident Fascist]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1330558417' post='5848504']
You just aren't looking hard enough.
[/quote]

suggestions...?

[burnpsy]

I'm just gonna state one, since I have nothing to really prove here.

Super Meat Boy came out about less than 1.5 years ago.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Order-Sol' timestamp='1330532732' post='5847806']
So, It's of no doubt that games have gotten easier throughout the years. While it's not a bad thing, it can sometimes shoo away experts. A good example is marvel vs capcom 3 or many platformers, in general. The moment the player goes into level 3 X-Factor, more than likely that player has won.
[/quote]
Using X-Factor is a HORRIBLE example. Like, I can't even put it into words how bad it is. X-Factor as a game mechanic is a catch up feature to help add various to the game it has nothing to do with making the game easier or not. And in general you can't use fighting games in this kind of argument since often just becoming decent is a fair amount of work and keeps casual players out and to get good at it takes time and effort.

Yes, in general games have gotten easier, but almost every game have a hard difficulty and most other have hard dungeon or stages. Using the platformer example Galaxy 2 and Mario 3D both have extremely hard bonus stages and the later levels aren't what I'd call a walk in the park. Also, another work around this is to put collectables in it in hard to get to spots. So even if the game isn't hard over, it is very rare they the game doesn't have challenging areas. Also, as said hard games still exist, Super Meat Boy being a great example.

To answer your question you don't need to worry about the beginners. When someone is first learning a game the just need to learn the dare bones of it and it systems. Only after they learn that should they even start to learn the more advance tricks that can be done. Also, the ease at which something can be done isn't important in fighting games (assuming this is a fighting game) it is the depths of the system and the game play and the character that is key to appealing to people. So, having a simple core mechanics and cool characters will bring in beginners/casual players and having the advance mechanics will give something for more experienced players to enjoy in the game.

In short, when your creating advance technique beginners will rarely every need to worry about it when they play. It only becomes a factor when they want to pursue higher level play, and at that point they already are willing to learn the higher levels moves.

Also, since you are designing a game, and because I love linking MTG articles, this might have something that interests you.
[url="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/174"]http://www.wizards.c...tg/daily/mm/174[/url]
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/184
You might already know this, but it is still a good read regardless.

[Lonk]

You want to know what happens when you try to cater to both beginners and pros alike and turn them both off?

Mario Kart Wii

The opposite is true for the Smash Bros. series though.

[burnpsy]

[quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1331247236' post='5862352']
You want to know what happens when you try to cater to both beginners and pros alike and turn them both off?

Mario Kart Wii
[/quote]

Not too great an example, since people ate it up like every other game in the franchise. XD

[Lonk]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1331254274' post='5862504']
Not too great an example, since people ate it up like every other game in the franchise. XD
[/quote]

Don't get me wrong. I love the game and it is a blast to play, but the luck factor is incredibly frustrating to deal with while the rubber band physics that are just abhorrent. Because of those two elements presiding strongly in the game, any player can get dropped from 1st place to last place in 10 seconds or less and have a difficult climbing journey to 1st place. Then, when you finally make first place, an lolblueshell appears, followed by a red shell, then a POW Block, then a lightning bolt, and to top it off, a bullet bill, all comboing you back to last place, while the rubber band physics catapaults the CPUs 10 miles ahead of you. That pretty much turns anyone off for a while. But, because of how fun the game is, players go back to it and then experience the god awful item chaining that brings you back to last place. That is a good-enough reason as to why MK Wii is the weakest title out of the franchise. Worst part is that it had no excuse to back-up its flaws (Super Mario Kart was the first game using an experimental racing engine, so that game is forgiven. Then, Nintendo refined the engine into 3-D and it is incredibly consistent. MK Wii, one of the latest titles, should have had the same consistency as its predecessors. However, it ended up having some really punishing physics and an over-reliance on not getting combo'd by everyone behind you). Anyone try to go for 3 stars on all tracks of all difficulties yet?

[burnpsy]

Racing games in general need to drop the cheating AI. :/

[Shradow]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1331254274' post='5862504']
Not too great an example, since people ate it up like every other game in the franchise. XD
[/quote]

Nintendo makes fun as hell games, they don't need to cater to the skill level of its players.

[Lonk]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1331258671' post='5862585']
Racing games in general need to drop the cheating AI. :/
[/quote]

Yeah. The Computer is a Cheating Bastard makes games much more Nintendo Hard than what they should be like.

[Resident Fascist]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1331258671' post='5862585']
cheating AI. :/
[/quote]

*ahem* GOLD BOSS ORDER-SOL *ahem*

[Kizzi]

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1331254274' post='5862504']
Not too great an example, since people ate it up like every other game in the franchise. XD
[/quote]
Is it bad that I like it? I haven't played for ages but I think back when I did, I had items turned off.