Veganism and you.

[Blake]

Being a Vegan and making the world a better place are completely separate ._.

[John A. Zoidberg]

Veganism is about ending animal suffering. Though I'm not vegan, ending animal suffering would make the world a much better place.

[CMRenji]

[quote name='Psaro' timestamp='1329270590' post='5817418']
Exactly, but saying "I'll tie them up and force them to eat meat" is just messed up.
[/quote]
I agree, that sounds barbaric.

[quote name='Relius Clover' timestamp='1329270699' post='5817423']
Being a Vegan and making the world a better place are completely separate ._.
[/quote]
Well, that's just my opinion. I just figure that some people would have better lives being a vegan. And those same people could better the lives of others.

[Blake]

No.

As Xander pointed out, it wouldn't end ANY suffering, it would just redirect it. All it does is give you a label to go I AM BETTER THAN YOU I ONLY EAT PLANTS AND NON-ANIMAL STUFF.

I mean, really, how is giving people a false sense of pride a good thing? Especially when it punishes anything wild over anything kept to be raised as livestock?

[CMRenji]

[quote name='Psaro' timestamp='1329270866' post='5817431']
Veganism is about ending animal suffering. Though I'm not vegan, ending animal suffering would make the world a much better place.
[/quote]
Couldn't say it any better myself.

[quote name='Relius Clover' timestamp='1329271098' post='5817440']
No.

As Xander pointed out, it wouldn't end ANY suffering, it would just redirect it. All it does is give you a label to go I AM BETTER THAN YOU I ONLY EAT PLANTS AND NON-ANIMAL STUFF.

I mean, really, how is giving people a false sense of pride a good thing? Especially when it punishes anything wild over anything kept to be raised as livestock?
[/quote]
One less cow to send to the slaughter, one less chicken to be stuffed into a small cage. That's what I want.

[John A. Zoidberg]

[quote name='Relius Clover' timestamp='1329271098' post='5817440']
No.

As Xander pointed out, it wouldn't end ANY suffering, it would just redirect it. All it does is give you a label to go I AM BETTER THAN YOU I ONLY EAT PLANTS AND NON-ANIMAL STUFF.

I mean, really, how is giving people a false sense of pride a good thing? Especially when it punishes anything wild over anything kept to be raised as livestock?
[/quote]

I'd rather have animals lose a tiny bit of land than allow borderline genocide on nearly every major farm animal in existence.
Honestly, you act as though the entire earth would need to be turned into farmland.

[Blake]

[quote name='CM Renji' timestamp='1329271386' post='5817449']
One less cow to send to the slaughter, one less chicken to be stuffed into a small cage. That's what I want.
[/quote]
You actually ninja'd me, so that wasn't to you.

And, instead, one more rabbit without a home, one more squirrel without food

[quote name='Psaro' timestamp='1329271459' post='5817451']
I'd rather have animals lose a tiny bit of land than allow borderline genocide on nearly every major farm animal in existence.
Honestly, you act as though the entire earth would need to be turned into farmland.
[/quote]
TINY?

They'd lose all their land, if everyone was vegan.

You're being ignorant, ironically, if you think only a few would lose land.

[Smesh]

No.
No.
No.
No.

sry cldnt hear u bacons to crunchy

[John A. Zoidberg]

[quote name='Relius Clover' timestamp='1329271558' post='5817453']
You actually ninja'd me, so that wasn't to you.

And, instead, one more rabbit without a home, one more squirrel without food


TINY?

They'd lose all their land, if everyone was vegan.

You're being ignorant, ironically, if you think only a few would lose land.
[/quote]

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you realize how small of a space it takes to feed one family of five? Over this past summer, my family had four vegetable gardens. Each was maybe three feet by three feet. That's a total of twelve square feet of space. We ate like kings that summer, and had meat on the minimum. So divide the 12 by 5 to get 2.4 square feet of land. Multiply that by 7 billion (since that's an approximation of every person on earth). You get 16.8 billion. Divide that by 5280, since that's the amount of feet in a mile. You end with approximately 3,181,818.2 square miles of land to feed everyone on Earth. Now also take into account that there's already a ton of farmland on Earth. Sure, it's a lot, but keep in mind how much space is needed to raise and breed animals.

Also, it's not like rabbits and squirrels lack the ability to walk onto a farm. Unless the farmer sets up uber barbed wire fencing and whatnot (which they wouldn't for the safety and wellbeing of animals), free roaming would still be a thing.

[Blake]

[quote name='Psaro' timestamp='1329272435' post='5817475']
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you realize how small of a space it takes to feed one family of five? Over this past summer, my family had four vegetable gardens. Each was maybe three feet by three feet. That's a total of twelve square feet of space. We ate like kings that summer, and had meat on the minimum. So divide the 12 by 5 to get 2.4 square feet of land. Multiply that by 7 billion (since that's an approximation of every person on earth). You get 16.8 billion. Divide that by 5280, since that's the amount of feet in a mile. You end with approximately 3,181,818.2 square miles of land to feed everyone on Earth. Now also take into account that there's already a ton of farmland on Earth. Sure, it's a lot, but keep in mind how much space is needed to raise and breed animals.

Also, it's not like rabbits and squirrels lack the ability to walk onto a farm. Unless the farmer sets up uber barbed wire fencing and whatnot (which they wouldn't for the safety and wellbeing of animals), free roaming would still be a thing.
[/quote]
Obviously, you don't either

[spoiler=Genocide]

[b] gen·o·cide[/b]
   [jen-uh-sahyd] [url=""]Show IPA[/url]
noun
the deliberate [color=#333333]and[/color] [color=#333333]systematic[/color] [color=#333333]extermination[/color] of a national, racial, political, or cultural [color=#333333]group.[/color]
[color=#333333][/spoiler][/color]

We're not committing genocide with the animals, we have no desire to eradicate them.

I mean, really. Okay, your one family ate like kings, and you're using situational math.

Take into account that a good deal of land is not farm-worthy. Also, that Squirrels live in these thigns called TREES, which are cut down for farm land.

To have the world be more vegan means more WILD animals die, instead of domesticated ones. Not to mention the fact that animals like Rabbits and Squirrels multiply, and that there are bigger animals, ie wolves and bears, that are put off by this. The latter 2, when they come near humans, are considered nuisances. You're basically saying EFF YOU NATURE so that domesticated animals aren't bred for food.

Or, should we just hunt ALL the food we'll eat?

[CMRenji]

[quote name='Relius Clover' timestamp='1329271558' post='5817453']
You actually ninja'd me, so that wasn't to you.

And, instead, one more rabbit without a home, one more squirrel without food


TINY?

They'd lose all their land, if everyone was vegan.

You're being ignorant, ironically, if you think only a few would lose land.
[/quote]
I can still direct my comments toward you, bro.

Not everyone should be a vegan. And even if everyone WAS a vegan, I don't see how so many animals would lose land.

[quote name='Smesh' timestamp='1329271783' post='5817460']
No.
No.
No.
No.

sry cldnt hear u bacons to crunchy
[/quote]
[img]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1059/bacondenied.png[/img]

[John A. Zoidberg]

[quote name='Relius Clover' timestamp='1329272887' post='5817489']
Obviously, you don't either

[spoiler=Genocide]

[b] gen·o·cide[/b]
   [jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
noun
the deliberate [color=#333333]and[/color] [color=#333333]systematic[/color] [color=#333333]extermination[/color] of a national, racial, political, or cultural [color=#333333]group.[/color]
[color=#333333][/spoiler][/color]

We're not committing genocide with the animals, we have no desire to eradicate them.
[b]Someone didn't see 'borderline.' [/b]

I mean, really. Okay, your one family ate like kings, and you're using situational math.

[b]Yes, one average American family. Average meaning that not everyone is twig thin and has the ability to eat a small plate of greens and be sustained for a few days. There was probably enough each week to feed at least two families three full, healthy-sized meals a day. And yes, it is situation math, but it is based off of facts. Farmland DOES already exist. Factories that are used for the murder of animals can be converted to farmland, provided the soil is fertile. Also, approximate value is approximate.[/b]

Take into account that a good deal of land is not farm-worthy. Also, that Squirrels live in these thigns called TREES, which are cut down for farm land.

[b]I FIND YOUR SARCASM AMUSING. The majority of farmland is generally on an area of planes, as it is easier to grow without things like hills and trees in their way. And again, farmland still exists due to history, and it's not like every family would need their own personal farm. One farm around the size of a small apartment could probably feed at least five-six families and keep them regularly fed.[/b]

To have the world be more vegan means more WILD animals die, instead of domesticated ones. Not to mention the fact that animals like Rabbits and Squirrels multiply, and that there are bigger animals, ie wolves and bears, that are put off by this. The latter 2, when they come near humans, are considered nuisances. You're basically saying EFF YOU NATURE so that domesticated animals aren't bred for food.

[b]See previous point. Also, the animals that are bred for food are generally overbred, which can (especially with cows) lead to pollution and things like that. You're assuming that people would destroy the South American rainforest in the name of veganism. No, they wouldn't. They would use previously raised farms, and make new ones. Plus, there is the factor of how much a person needs in order to sustain themselves. Not everybody needs to eat, I dunno, two large pieces of steak and other things on the side in order to survive.[/b]

Or, should we just hunt ALL the food we'll eat?

[b]I'm not even sure what you mean by this. [/b]
[/quote]

[Enrise]

Okay, I think this topic is blown way out of proportion, where it doesn't need to be. The world doesn't need to be purely vegan or purely carnivore. There needs to be a balance between the two. Sure, putting off the meat for a bit may do good for your body if you're having too much of it, or vice versa if it applies (should it apply).

I admit, I don't like the way the animals in farms are being treated either. The only solution I can think about that is to change the methods that are being used to make meat out of animals. And I don't even know much about how they're treated. But clearly from what I know that the methods need changing. I just know that I'm currently not able-minded to think of ways to change those ways.


I could suggest another option, but the idea is so inhumane by society's standards that the idea may never be accepted in these 1000 years. And even then I still doubt it.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Became a vegan just over two years ago. It's a fairly significant inconvenience, far stricter than vegetarianism as so many things involve using animal products as part of the process of making them. You pretty much have to double-check everything and it be picky to the extent that inevitably alienates people.

Most nights my family's eating something with animal products and I make my own dinners as has become routine to the point of not being brought up and we still get on well, but being consistent involves denying a lot of stuff from everyone you happen to be staying with and when I finally tell them my motives for refusal, they generally yield some sort of forced praise (or not) before resenting you for self-righteousness for the remainder of the time you're with them.

I'd still recommend it though as the ethical implications of forcing animals that obviously can't consent to constant slavery (and death for non-vegetarians) for your sake are pretty bad when you reflect on it for a while but I wouldn't denounce anyone for using animal products and eating meat when it's so ubiquitous and you've been conditioned for so long to have your steak, eat it too, and shriek your delight with its succulence. You do eventually become accustomed to it and there should be enough vegan places wherever you are to keep you going, even if they involve tedious and out of the way additional shopping trips.

[FindingTheEverlight]

I can't stand freegans. They raid the dumpster at the Wendy's I work at. We've called the cops on them but I guess that the police can't do anything about it. Idk, I think it's a stupid thing to do.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

[quote]
I can't stand freegans. They raid the dumpster at the Wendy's I work at. We've called the cops on them but I guess that the police can't do anything about it. Idk, I think it's a stupid thing to do.[/quote]

I think working at Wendy's is a stupid thing to do.

[FindingTheEverlight]

[quote name='~ P O L A R I S ~' timestamp='1329285180' post='5817760']


I think working at Wendy's is a stupid thing to do.
[/quote]

It pays, that's all that matters. The way most freegans decide to live is a little lazy, they usually don't work and accept welfare, I'm not hating off anything but I think you should work and deserve whatever from working. I'm not saying all of them are like this, but it's the general lifestyle of one. I work for a living, so what if we serve meat products, that's just what it is.

It's just not my chosen lifestyle and I'll stick to being an omnivore.

[CMRenji]

[quote name='Finding The Everlight' timestamp='1329285948' post='5817768']
It pays, that's all that matters. The way most freegans decide to live is a little lazy, they usually don't work and accept welfare, I'm not hating off anything but I think you should work and deserve whatever from working. I'm not saying all of them are like this, but it's the general lifestyle of one. I work for a living, so what if we serve meat products, that's just what it is.

It's just not my chosen lifestyle and I'll stick to being an omnivore.
[/quote]
So, you just assume that most of them are lazy bums? :/

[John A. Zoidberg]

I feel like the only real alternative to many people being vegan (and by many, I mean more than the minority that exist right now), would be to make more laws on animal treatment everywhere, those being:
-No factory production.
-No forced overproduction.
-Etc.

Honestly, I hate buying processed meat products and having the thought that it was once an animal strung up ad helpless, only on its way to a painful death. And castration for males in many cases, that rubbed me the wrong way as well.

[Tentacruel]

[quote name='Psaro' timestamp='1329308526' post='5818088']
I feel like the only real alternative to many people being vegan (and by many, I mean more than the minority that exist right now), would be to make more laws on animal treatment everywhere, those being:
-No factory production.
-No forced overproduction.
-Etc.

Honestly, I hate buying processed meat products and having the thought that it was once an animal strung up ad helpless, only on its way to a painful death. And castration for males in many cases, that rubbed me the wrong way as well.
[/quote]

And that's why you buy organic food.

But those laws should really be enforced.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

I'm gonna get hate for this one, but I honestly don't see the problem with killing animals for food. Carnivores do it, why can't we? Sure we may be a bit brutal at times, but so is a wolf attacking and tearing through it's helpless prey with it's pack.

[.Rai]

Let's make all lions vegan because it'll help end animal cruelty!

Whatever happens, becoming vegan is not going to help end animal cruelty:

1. You can't make everyone in the world vegan and the demand for meat produce will only go down extremely minimally.
2. Not every single animal is made via battery farming or cruel ways of farming. Free range does exist.

Homo sapiens is a [b]hunter race.[/b] We were traditionally hunter-gatherers, eating whatever we could find or hunt. We've evolved to be omnivores, and trying to appeal to our herbivorous side is just a bit weird. Of course it depends on the individual, but I don't really see the appeal of becoming vegan or vegetarian. If we're not traditionally like that, what's the point becoming so? Life goes on and the world goes round. Not that I have anything against them since I respect that, and it's a highly commendable thing to be attempting.

Myself, while not vegetarian in the slightest, well, I usually make a conscious effort to eat healthily and I don't usually eat much meat anyway. Of all things, cruelty shouldn't be the priority, it should be conservation. Tons of species of fish are overfished, so it's much better to eat lesser-known and conservable sources of food.

Factory production is a side effect of the sheer demand out there. There's not much to be done until companies find ways to successfully research viable ways to use a hybrid-sustainance/commercial farming method.

Also, interesting fact. Pandas are probably gonna become extinct because of two main reasons:

1. Habitat destruction...
2. ...but more interestingly, because they are actually carnivores, verging on omnivore.

After other animals being introduced and entering the pandas' habitats, they became forced to eat the large amount of bamboo there. Because of their stomachs pretty much being not accustomed to being vegetarian, they have to eat tons of it. And the rest of the time is sleeping the food off. So they have no time for 'ze breedingz, and therefore are dying out.

[CinnamonStar]

The thing many militant people (not just vegans, all kinds of elastic-fantastic environmentalists) don't want to understand is that there are numerous ways to contribute to saving animals or saving the world (assuming that you want to do that). Sure, veganism can contribute a good amount, if you don't order all your processed soy products overseas (I know they don't only eat soy products, but I know quite a few people who do this and think it's awesome ).
If that works for you and it's your way to contribute to the well-being of the world, then that's good for you.
However, there are also other ways and I don't see why a person who eats meat, but pays attention to puying locally, donates blood, DOESN'T go on a shopping trip every month or does any other good things can't be considered a good person because the person isn't...well vegan. There are many helpful causes to help the world, but quite a few vegans are convinced that only veganism is THE number 1 cause that is going to save all.

As for me, I've never been a vegan. I've gone through a few phases of no meat, no animal products at all (in terms of food, I didn't throw my leather shoes away), fish and no other meat, meat again, no meat, etc., but it's usually a "feeling like it" thing or during the lenting period when I try things out.
Most of the time I'm a "fish and very few other meats" kind of person though and I think it's going to stay like that.
But I couldn't carry an entire vegan lifestyle through, first for health reasons (people who know me know what I'm talking about) and because my conviction that it's going to do so good and only good isn't strong enough, even though I've researched a lot about the matter. But that's a personal decision you need to take.

Oh and this one is just my opinion again, but I think that if people globally decided to eat a little bit less meat - just a little bit -, the world would be better off and there wouldn't be a need for such things as factory farming. But then again, if the demand has raised while the number of vegans and vegetarians has also raised, it's [i]also[/i] because people in countries that traditionally didn't eat a lot of meat are starting to eat more of it and we can't really take their right off.=/ If you live in Germany or the US, you can't really shout at them evil Indians or them evil Chinese people who have started eating more meat during the last few years.>_> Yet that's what many people do.:<

[Cin]

[quote name='Protogenoi - Chaos' timestamp='1329260616' post='5817038']
And although this might sound like a bad idea, I actually want to try human flesh. Just to try it. Unfortunately, it's high in toxins and other chemicals, and who knows what else? [s]stds[/s]
[/quote]
In 'Bones', Human flesh drove a person mad.
[quote name='- Zeal -' timestamp='1329259660' post='5817019']
People who are vegans have obviously never tasted meat :I
[/quote]
Why does that remind me of a Spongebob episode?

I'm too much of a fan of meat to ever become a vegetarian or vegan. Two of my teachers in school were vegetarians (one more strict than the other), but neither pushed it upon me so that's ok.

[FindingTheEverlight]

[quote name='CM Renji' timestamp='1329304997' post='5818036']
So, you just assume that most of them are lazy bums? :/
[/quote]

I never said that. I said a lot of them are like that, I've read up on a lot of them, and that's just my main assumption. I may be wrong for the most part, but that's how I see it.