Ultimate Gate Guardian; a new take on an old favorite

[bilaterus]

The only way you will be able to summon Guardian easily is with phantom of chaos-esque effects to mimic suijin, kazekin and sanga. Guardian Box Set is way too splashable for other decks with boss monsters and for what Miror said.

There will be love for gate guardian if you can make him playable.

[KdogPrime]

[quote name='bilaterus' timestamp='1317062839' post='5542186']
The only way you will be able to summon Guardian easily is with phantom of chaos-esque effects to mimic suijin, kazekin and sanga. Guardian Box Set is way too splashable for other decks with boss monsters and for what Miror said.

There will be love for gate guardian if you can make him playable.
[/quote]

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not going to make a support card [b]specifically[/b] for a set of just four monsters. That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? And I'm not going to start copying the effects of cards that already exist just for the sake of making Gate Guardian easier to summon. You want Phantom of Chaos? Then use Phantom of Chaos! You can have three in a deck, it's an excellent idea.

My original intent was to take the BASIC Gate Guardian and make him more viable. I'm not making him a Fusion, or a Ritual, or anything else that a dozen other people have tried. There are cards out there that you have to jump through insane hoops to bring out, and they are a lot more crazy than Gate Guardian.

Simply put, I'm not going to change anything else. With two COTH and a Monster Reborn, plus all the cards for summoning from the graveyard that no one seems to use these days, it shouldn't be that difficult anymore. Not to mention, this Gate Guardian ignores one opponent's card effect PER TURN, has a triple attack vs monsters, and has to be hit for more than 2400 damage THREE TIMES before it is destroyed by battle.

How much more playable does it get? If a card of this level were easy to summon, then all I'd get is "OP'ed OP'ed OP'ed OP'ed".

I'd like to see someone take these two cards and build a deck to use them properly.

[bilaterus]

[quote name='KdogPrime' timestamp='1317105847' post='5543287']

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not going to make a support card [b]specifically[/b] for a set of just four monsters. That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? And I'm not going to start copying the effects of cards that already exist just for the sake of making Gate Guardian easier to summon. You want Phantom of Chaos? Then use Phantom of Chaos! You can have three in a deck, it's an excellent idea.[/quote]

Phantom of Chaos wouldn't work. He only copies dark mons. And support for four cards isn't ridiculous at all; the more support, the larger the set, if you can get the cards to support each other.

[quote name='KdogPrime' timestamp='1317105847' post='5543287']
My original intent was to take the BASIC Gate Guardian and make him more viable. I'm not making him a Fusion, or a Ritual, or anything else that a dozen other people have tried. There are cards out there that you have to jump through insane hoops to bring out, and they are a lot more crazy than Gate Guardian. [/quote]

Credit to you for this, actually, keeping him an effect monster. But, as for the stupid monster hoops, those monsters aren't touched with a barge pole, for good reason. Your gate guardian won't be either, except in one heck of a challenge deck...

[quote name='KdogPrime' timestamp='1317105847' post='5543287']
Simply put, I'm not going to change anything else. With two COTH and a Monster Reborn, plus all the cards for summoning from the graveyard that no one seems to use these days, it shouldn't be that difficult anymore. Not to mention, this Gate Guardian ignores one opponent's card effect PER TURN, has a triple attack vs monsters, and has to be hit for more than 2400 damage THREE TIMES before it is destroyed by battle. [/quote]

2 CotH and 1 MR is just not practical at all to rely on to get 3 mons out. Not to mention you have to get them in the grave in the first place. What other revival is there that works for these guys, really? Yeah you've made Gate Guardian pretty powerful but he's still impossible to summon if your opponent is trying to prevent it, much less summon it consistently enough to make a tier 1 deck out of. Not that it's necessarily your goal or anything but it could still use some support.


[quote name='KdogPrime' timestamp='1317105847' post='5543287']
How much more playable does it get? If a card of this level were easy to summon, then all I'd get is "OP'ed OP'ed OP'ed OP'ed".

I'd like to see someone take these two cards and build a deck to use them properly.
[/quote]

It shouldn't be easy to summon, just easier. And, I don't trust my deck building skills to be able to construct a consistent deck around these, there's just not enough support I think.

Of course, if you don't make any more support, that's fine and entirely your decision.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='bilaterus' timestamp='1317158930' post='5544234']
Phantom of Chaos wouldn't work. He only copies dark mons.
[/quote]
Just gonna point this out but:

[size=8][b]WRONG![/b][/size]

And I honestly think that spell card is enough anyway.

[KdogPrime]

[quote name='bilaterus' timestamp='1317158930' post='5544234']

Phantom of Chaos wouldn't work. He only copies dark mons. And support for four cards isn't ridiculous at all; the more support, the larger the set, if you can get the cards to support each other.

[/quote]

[i]Taken directly from my own copy of Phantom of Chaos[/i]: "Any Battle Damage this monster inflicts to your opponent becomes 0. Once per turn, you can remove from play 1 Effect Monster in your Graveyard. Until the End Phase, this card's name is treated as that monster's name, and it gains that monster's effect(s) and ATK.

The only reason people don't use those older cards anymore is because the game is over 12 years old. There's a whole new generation of kids playing the game that don't know anything about the cards before Synchro monsters and only know archetypes. You know how easy it is to build a deck that wins consistently these days? Just get all the cards and support cards of a given archetype. That's it. No creativity required. The strategy is practically built into the cards. It's not even fun anymore. I figured that out after the lightsworns and blackwings started appearing. Hell, even the "Hero"es required a little creativity, just for the sheer number of cards in that archetype.

And I'm not talking about putting the trio in the graveyard to summon them as the ONLY option that is viable. Those are backup options. BTW, name me ONE deck that is ever successful at summoning its ace card consistently in less than three turns.

Not to mention, if your opponent is playing a deck that uses lots of effects to destroy monsters, then no deck is going to perform well against it, let alone a deck that is based around the Gate Guardian. But if your opponent wastes their effect on just the pieces of the Gate Guardian, then there are other things you can do to mess them up, not to mention cards you can use to protect your monsters.

Despite that, you did make a good point. They really need a card to keep them on the field. Now to find a picture. This could take a while.

[Just Crouton]

Summoning conditions would be a lot better if you can send the guardians from the field [b]and/or your hand [/b]to the Graveyard.

[bilaterus]

Apologies regarding phantom of chaos, too much usage of HED made me confuse it lol. I really should've checked it dammit.

Fair enough also regarding the whole deck building thing. Technically 1 Shi En, or even 2 or 3, appeared on the first or second turn, but then he wasn't as OP as this and he was limited...I should've put some more thought into how the deck would look, so I agree with you now. It's not like suijin, etc are defenseless as they are anyway.

[KdogPrime]

Bump, added three new support cards. Always had these ideas in my head, but I couldn't find good pictures to use, so I gave up and used screenshots from the show.

Also, a question about support for Sanga of the Thunder, [b]would you prefer my new support card, [/b][b]Thunder Burst, or Makiu, the Magical Mist?[/b]

As always, positive constructive feedback would be appreciated.

[ekko1990]

I definitively like the Gate Guardian remake, being powerful enough to make up for its hard summoning condition, but still not too powerful.
The effect fits the card's theme pretty well.

Though I'd suggest changing the wording of the first effect to something like this: "[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Once per turn, if a card effect would affect this card and no other cards; you can negate it.[/size][/font][/color]" though I'd advice to make it just negate targeting effects to make it simpler.

I also remade the card's text to a shorter version (with the new suggested first effect).
[spoiler=]This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card can only be Special Summoned by Tributing "Sanga of the Thunder", "Kazejin", and "Suijin". Once per turn, if a card effect would affect this card and no other cards; you can negate it. Once per turn, you can halve this card's ATK until the End Phase. If you do, this card can attack up to 3 of your opponent's monsters this turn. If this card is attacked, halve its ATK until the End Phase. If this card would be destroyed by battle, you can add 1 "Guard Counter" to this card (max. 2) instead. Counters placed by this effect cannot be removed card effects.[/spoiler]

Next up is the Guardian Box Set. This card is indeed a bit broken due to the ways it can be used outside the Guardian deck (especially with the last effect) in addition to that you special summon from your deck.
I'd suggest changing it to something like this:
[spoiler=]You can only activate 1 "Guardian Box Set" per turn. Activate one of these effects:
- Discard 1 monster card from your hand. Add 1 Level 7 monster with 2600 or less ATK from your deck to your hand".
- Banish from your graveyard monster(s) whose total Levels equal 7 or more. Special summon 1 Level 7 Light, Water or Wind monster from your graveyard.[/spoiler]
This way its a bit more balanced and more bound to Gate Guardian decks. You can also use this cards first effect to discard a monster to use its second effect on later.

Squall Barricade: Again (though especially with this one), I'd suggest you make it effects that target.

Thunder Burst: This card is simply too powerful, as it allows a 2600 monster to attack twice with one of these attacks being able to hit directly.

Tidal Shield needs a bit of a change in its effect. "This effect can only be activated if you control "Suijin" and at least two other monsters. When your o[size=3][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]pponent attacks with a monster that has 2400 ATK or more, negate the attack. Each turn you can only activate this effect up to the number of monsters you control."[/font]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The life point cost isn't really necessary as you need to keep at least 3 monsters on the field to even use this card which is difficult in itself.[/font][/size]

[KdogPrime]

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333211322' post='5896129']
I definitively like the Gate Guardian remake, being powerful enough to make up for its hard summoning condition, but still not too powerful.
The effect fits the card's theme pretty well.
[/quote]

Thank you, it's nice to see the monster appreciated.

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333211322' post='5896129']
Though I'd suggest changing the wording of the first effect to something like this: "[color=#5A5A5A][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Once per turn, if a card effect would affect this card and no other cards; you can negate it.[/size][/font][/color]" though I'd advice to make it just negate targeting effects to make it simpler.
[/quote]

That whole statement is completely redundant, because don't targeted effects by definition affect one selected card and no others?

The change would ruin the whole point of Ultimate Gate Guardian being a threat that isn't easily stopped. If he can be locked down by Gravity Bind, or Level Limit Area "B", or easily destroyed by Mirror Force or Dark Hole, what good would it be to go through all the pain of summoning him in the first place?

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333211322' post='5896129']
Next up is the Guardian Box Set. This card is indeed a bit broken due to the ways it can be used outside the Guardian deck (especially with the last effect) in addition to that you special summon from your deck.
I'd suggest changing it to something like this:

You can only activate 1 "Guardian Box Set" per turn. Activate one of these effects:
- Discard 1 monster card from your hand. Add 1 Level 7 monster with 2600 or less ATK from your deck to your hand".
- Banish from your graveyard monster(s) whose total Levels equal 7 or more. Special summon 1 Level 7 Light, Water or Wind monster from your graveyard.
This way its a bit more balanced and more bound to Gate Guardian decks. You can also use this cards first effect to discard a monster to use its second effect on later.
[/quote]

Clearly the only thing broken here is your knowledge of the game. Do you know how many Level 7 monster have more than 2600 ATK? Eleven. That's all. And one of those is a Ritual Monster, the other is a Synchro. Most Level 7 Monsters have 2600 or less ATK and none of them have more than 2800, so your suggestion for the first effect does almost nothing to restrict it.

The second suggestion is equally as useless, as it forces you to put the trio in the graveyard before you can use Guardian Box Set's second effect. And then, why on earth would you banish monsters from your graveyard to summon the trio when you could use Monster Reborn, or three Call of the Haunted (since CoTH is no longer limited at all), or three Phantom of Chaos to copy the trio's names, ATK/DEF and effects? Not to mention Spear Cretin. All of these are easier to use than the effect you just changed. I will admit, the effect could be used for monsters other than the trio, but so could your changed effect.

If you read the earlier posts you'll see that I clearly stated that the problem isn't getting the trio out of the graveyard, it's getting the trio into your hand, or out onto the field.

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333211322' post='5896129']
Squall Barricade: Again (though especially with this one), I'd suggest you make it effects that target.
[/quote]

The point of Squall Barricade was so that it could protect just the trio (Sanga of the Thunder, Kazejin, and Suijin) from effects that could potentially remove them from the field. Seeing as how Dark Hole is legal again, combined with Mirror Force and Lightning Vortex, plus the dozens of other cards you could use to banish them, I thought it was a good idea. Changing it to targeted effects only neuters the card. However, I do see that it is not worded quite right, and could be confusing, so I'll change it slightly to better reflect the intent.

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333211322' post='5896129']
Thunder Burst: This card is simply too powerful, as it allows a 2600 monster to attack twice with one of these attacks being able to hit directly.
[/quote]

So I guess you'd prefer Makiu, The Magical Mist instead? I sort of wrestled with the neccesity of making a support card for just Sanga, when Makiu would work equally well. You will notice that one or both of the two weaker pieces (Kazejin and Suijin) must do battle first before Thunder Burst can be used, and unless your opponent has a monster left, the second attack doesn't happen. Not to mention, the potential direct attack is completely dependant on Sanga's attack being successful against your opponent's monster.

That, or Sanga combos with Makiu to nuke the field. Sure you don't get a Battle Phase, but not many monsters under Level 8 have a DEF over 2600.

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333211322' post='5896129']
Tidal Shield needs a bit of a change in its effect. "This effect can only be activated if you control "Suijin" and at least two other monsters. When your o[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]pponent attacks with a monster that has 2400 ATK or more, negate the attack. Each turn you can only activate this effect up to the number of monsters you control."[/font]
[font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The life point cost isn't really necessary as you need to keep at least 3 monsters on the field to even use this card which is difficult in itself.[/font]
[/quote]

You are right on that, I did mess up on the activation limit per turn, but you nailed exactly what I had in mind, so I'll make that change. Also, I wasn't sure if an additional restriction would be necessary, but now that I look at it, the ATK point restriction, plus the activation limit and the number of monsters and the specific monster required make this hard enough to use, so I'll take off the Life Point cost.

The three new support cards were meant to provide Spell/Trap neutralization, defending tributable monster from attack, and offense to keep your opponent down while you try to summon Ultimate Gate Guardian.

[shelds9]

This was Necrobumped...

But Gate Guardian was one of my favs so I have to post. It is perfectly balanced as it still needs 3 Specific LV 7's that cannot be SS'ed by their own effects to summon it. It is very good, but because of it's summoning ocnditions, I still don't think that it would be used in the Meta today...

[KdogPrime]

[quote name='shelds9' timestamp='1333340724' post='5898588']
This was Necrobumped...

But Gate Guardian was one of my favs so I have to post. It is perfectly balanced as it still needs 3 Specific LV 7's that cannot be SS'ed by their own effects to summon it. It is very good, but because of it's summoning ocnditions, I still don't think that it would be used in the Meta today...
[/quote]

I know, but I wanted him to be useful SOOOO badly.

Yes, I necrobumped, but I did it myself, so isn't that ok, since I started the thread in the first place?

[shelds9]

I don't think so...

[KdogPrime]

Not ok that I bumped it? Whatever. I made new cards, so I bumped the thread. It's not like I can just pick this up whenever I want to, so sometimes it takes me a while to get time to do this.

Lol, wait until I bump my GaoGaiGar thread, that one is almost 3 years old.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Well is it actually a bump if it adds new content? Certainly it's a revival but a bump is a post with little/no other point other than to move (bump) the thread up the forums.

It's good to see Gate Guardian get some support and is a real shame that it was missed. One thing I like is that it's not a plug-n-play archetype, you have to specifically find the cards rather than "Bunch all cards with inzektors in their name in a deck, I win." My only concern is that Ultimate Gate Guardian makes running Gate Guardian redundant.

[ekko1990]

@KdogPrime

I clearly see you are "very open" for criticism, so I'll leave this thread to dust by telling you there are 28 level 7 monsters (none of which are ritual, synchro or fusion) that have over 2600 atk. With Gorz, Lightray Diabolos and Dark Simorg being some of them that should be all I need to say.

[KdogPrime]

[quote name='ekko1990' timestamp='1333405691' post='5899323']
@KdogPrime

I clearly see you are "very open" for criticism, so I'll leave this thread to dust by telling you there are 28 level 7 monsters (none of which are ritual, synchro or fusion) that have over 2600 atk. With Gorz, Lightray Diabolos and Dark Simorg being some of them that should be all I need to say.
[/quote]

I knew I should have actually signed in to Yugioh Wiki to make an accurate count before I made that post. Oh well. Serves me right.

But regardless, that's still only 28 out of 195 Level 7 monsters, or roughly 14%. Also keep in mind, 9 of those 28 monsters are a combination of Synchros and Fusions (which can't be added to your hand), which leaves only (Gasp!) 19 monsters that couldn't be added by the modified effect you suggested. That's 16 Effect monsters, plus 2 Normal monsters and 1 Ritual monster. As well, many of the more powerful Effect monsters have complex summoning requirements, and lest we forget two tributes to summon the rest. Additionally, even if you take into account the number of Synchro and Fusion monsters with less than 2600 ATK (including one Token), it's only 132 Level 7 monsters, with 19 of those being restricted by the modified effect, which is still approximately 14%. Also, just because a monster has over 2600 ATK, that doesn't mean its effect is going to be better than a monster with less ATK. Ditching a monster to add a Level 7 to your hand isn't going to give you that big of an edge. So, your idea for the 2600 or under ATK restriction still does almost nothing to restrict the card's effect. Your knowledge of the game is still clearly broken. "Leave this thread in the dust", right. You obviously have a problem with someone rejecting your ideas.

Also, I never claimed I was open for criticism, so I have no idea why you put that in quotation marks. I clearly stated, and I'll type it again, that positive, constructive feedback is welcome. If I seemed a little harsh, it's only because that's the way I am. If I came across as rude in my first reply, I apologize. But I'm not apologizing this time. Trying to treat me like an idiot when I reject your ideas based on evidence to the contrary is not the way to speak to me, or anyone else for that matter. I'm not going to bend the effects my cards with every suggestion everyone makes. You made some suggestions, I considered them, accepted some and rejected the rest. The issue is closed.

[quote name='Black Temple Gaurdian' timestamp='1333375644' post='5898828']
Well is it actually a bump if it adds new content? Certainly it's a revival but a bump is a post with little/no other point other than to move (bump) the thread up the forums.

It's good to see Gate Guardian get some support and is a real shame that it was missed. One thing I like is that it's not a plug-n-play archetype, you have to specifically find the cards rather than "Bunch all cards with inzektors in their name in a deck, I win." My only concern is that Ultimate Gate Guardian makes running Gate Guardian redundant.
[/quote]

Thank you, and it was my intent to make Ultimate Gate Guardian as a more viable replacement for Gate Guardian.

[KdogPrime]

(deleted)

[KdogPrime]

Bump