3-0 Banlist Logic

[Mysty]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1313635014' post='5451879']
Tokens can't be used.
[/quote]

While that is true, if Dandylion is overlaid and then detached, you'll get two tokens from Dandylion.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1313635014' post='5451879']
Tokens can't be used.
And everyone pretty much prefers Tourguide as it also grabs Sangan.
[/quote]
But [s]OCG[/s] actual Xyz rules don't let Sangan search.

I'm not so sure Librarian would have to be banned on a "good" list. It became broken because of the ability to Synchro multiple times in the same turn, and then it also dovetailed into SQD. On the other hand, its interaction with Formula is pretty much unacceptable.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='機皇神龍アステリスク' timestamp='1313635279' post='5451884']
But [s]OCG[/s] actual Xyz rules don't let Sangan search.[/quote]
Sangan searches when it gets detached.
They ruled that Xyz materials are apparently "still on the field".
Meaning cards like Birdman, Plaguespreader, and Quillbolt get Banished when they are detached, if they were Summoned through their respective effects.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1313635014' post='5451879']
Tokens can't be used.
And everyone pretty much prefers Tourguide as it also grabs Sangan.
[/quote]
Good to know.


[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1313635121' post='5451881']
While that is true, if Dandylion is overlaid and then detached, you'll get two tokens from Dandylion.
[/quote]
Yea, but I don't mind getting the tokens as much as what you can do with them. Going XYZ, detach, and XYZ again is just too good. The fact that you can't doesn't Dandy any better like what happened when we got synchros.

[quote name='機皇神龍アステリスク' timestamp='1313635279' post='5451884']
I'm not so sure Librarian would have to be banned on a "good" list. It became broken because of the ability to Synchro multiple times in the same turn, and then it also dovetailed into SQD. On the other hand, its interaction with Formula is pretty much unacceptable.
[/quote]
Even if you can't get 5 synchros in on a single turn the extra draw this degenerates even if you can only get in a couple while he's out still makes him a force not to be taken lightly. Plus if him + Formula is that bad I'd much rather have the little car since at best that gets 3 draws, this can get a lot more, especially when you have more then one out. With that said it is reasonable to limit Librarian since getting 2 just lets you do stupid things.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1313612777' post='5451145']
Lets see...
According to the OP's list:

Scrap Chimera x3
Scrap Beast x3
Scrap Golem x2
Scrap Goblin x3
Summoner Monk x3
Card Trooper x3
Dandylion x3

Scapegoat x3
Scrapyard x3
Avarice x2
Mystical Space Typhoon x3
Scrapstorm x3
Foolish Burial x3

Reckless Greed x3

Red Dragon Archfiend x3
Dark End Dragon x3
Scrap Twin Dragon x2
Scrap Archfiend x3
Naturia Beast x2
Naturia Barkion x2

Deck looks hilarious.
[/quote]
You run 2 Avarice instead of 3 so drawing it is being too lucky.

[.Rai]

It makes sense but is a flawed concept simply due to so many factors in YGOz which affect the cards.

Also, on the topic of OP's stupidity, you can make this deck:

[spoiler=Super-Charged Plants]3 Magician of Faith
3 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
3 Debris Dragon
3 Dandylion
3 Lonefire Blossom
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
2 Chaos Sorcerer
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Other Random Plant Tuner that's not Spore

3 Pot of Avarice
3 Pot of Duality
3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Foolish Burial
2 Mystical Space Typhoon

3 Solemn Warning[/spoiler]

Also:

- Fishborg@3
- Gale the Whirlwind@3
- Charge of the Light Brigade@3
- Lumina@3
- Lonefire@3
- Magician of Faith@3
- Necro Gardna@3
- Avarice@3
- Reinforcement of the Army@3
- Oppression@3
- Exodias@3
- Foolish Burial@3

- Spirit Reaper@0
- Duality@0
- Messenger of Peace@0
- Other random stall@0
- Demise@0
- Cyber Dragon@0
- Cyber Twin@0
- Cyber End@0
- Vayu@0
- The Fool@0


WAAAAT.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1313692075' post='5453109']
It makes sense but is a flawed concept simply due to so many factors in YGOz which affect the cards.

Also, on the topic of OP's stupidity, you can make this deck:

[spoiler=Super-Charged Plants]3 Magician of Faith
3 Ryko, Lightsworn Hunter
3 Debris Dragon
3 Dandylion
3 Lonefire Blossom
2 Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress
2 Chaos Sorcerer
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Other Random Plant Tuner that's not Spore

3 Pot of Avarice
3 Pot of Duality
3 Charge of the Light Brigade
3 Foolish Burial
2 Mystical Space Typhoon

3 Solemn Warning[/spoiler]
[/quote]
I like how you comment on PoD being at 0 when the list you made uses 3? Not only that but Glow-Up and Sorcerer are also banned on this list.

Now for list reasonings.


- Fishborg@3 [b]Is only a problem with the giant fish and he should be banned[/b]
- Gale the Whirlwind@3 [b]Did you see the other cards BW lost? It's a good card, not broken.[/b]
- Charge of the Light Brigade@3 [b]Being able to search for a card is bad? What[/b]
- Lumina@3 [b]It's like Zombie Master, but limited to an archetype. Plus LS lost a bunch of other cards.[/b]
- Lonefire@3 [b]That should be banned.[/b]
- Magician of Faith@3 [b]With all the broken targets banned, why should this be banned? However, this does need to be watched.[/b]
- Necro Gardna@3 [b]Because stopping 3 attacks that the opponent can see coming is so bad right?[/b]
- Avarice@3 [b]Recycling cards is that bad? Again, with most of the bad cards gone this is less of a problem. However, this would need to be watched.[/b]
- Reinforcement of the Army@3 [b]Why is searching up a creature bad when all the broken creatures are gone?[/b]
- Oppression@3 [b]Special Summons break yugioh, this can limit them.[/b]
- Exodias@3 [b]Head should be banned on this list.[/b]
- Foolish Burial@3 [b]Broken targets are banned.[/b]

- Spirit Reaper@0 [b]Stalling, stalling, everyone love stall. However, a case can be made for this to be at 3.[/b]
- Duality@0 [b]Because the decks being 37 cards is a good thing?[/b]
- Messenger of Peace@0 [b]Stall.[/b]
- Other random stall@0 [b]Stall isn't fun, especially in large amounts.[/b]
- Demise@0 [b]ARA I think was the problem.[/b]
- Cyber Dragon@0 [b]Free 2100 beaters aren't good for the game. However, I will say that a case can be made for this to stay.[/b]
- Cyber Twin@0 [b]Metamorphosis is at 3.[/b]
- Cyber End@0 [b]^[/b]
- Vayu@0 [b]Beatsticks from no where are good? [/b]

[Jord200]

Dandy=0
Necrovalley=0
Whirlwind=0
JD=0
Gateway=0
Brio=0
Gale=0


Launcher=3
Foolish=3
Mirror=3
Burial from DD=3
Plauge=3


I wish.....

I kind of don't like how this sounds. It would ruin a quite a few decks.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1313710835' post='5453741']
I like how you comment on PoD being at 0 when the list you made uses 3? Not only that but Glow-Up and Sorcerer are also banned on this list.

Now for list reasonings.


- Fishborg@3 [b]Is only a problem with the giant fish and he should be banned[/b]
[i]Librarian is @3. Fishborg trollin'[/i]

- Gale the Whirlwind@3 [b]Did you see the other cards BW lost? It's a good card, not broken.[/b]
[i]Banned Armor Master. Hilarious.[/i]
[i]inb4itsstallsoitmustbebanned[/i]

- Charge of the Light Brigade@3 [b]Being able to search for a card is bad? What[/b]
[i]Consistency + Milling power = Tier 1 Plants. The details don't matter: as long as Plants have Rykos, this, and maybe some other LS toys, they will be Tier 1-2, particularly with 3 Debris and 3 Dandy.[/i]

- Lumina@3 [b]It's like Zombie Master, but limited to an archetype. Plus LS lost a bunch of other cards.[/b]
[i]By "a bunch of other cards" you mean Judgment Dragon and...Judgment Dragon? Oh, wait, I see Wulf and Celestia. I guess I'll buy this.[/i]

- Lonefire@3 [b]That should be banned.[/b]
- Magician of Faith@3 [b]With all the broken targets banned, why should this be banned? However, this does need to be watched.[/b]
[i]Yes, it does.[/i]

- Necro Gardna@3 [b]Because stopping 3 attacks that the opponent can see coming is so bad right?[/b]
- Avarice@3 [b]Recycling cards is that bad? Again, with most of the bad cards gone this is less of a problem. However, this would need to be watched.[/b]
[i]So I heard PoA lets you draw 2 cards.[/i]

- Reinforcement of the Army@3 [b]Why is searching up a creature bad when all the broken creatures are gone?[/b]
[i]There weren't any broken ones to begin with, aside from Stratos, and Stratos is only considered broken because it enhances consistency (in combination with being a decent beater). There was no monster this was limited because of to begin with, it was Limited because it was a 1-card toolbox, depending on what tools you included in your deck.[/i]

- Oppression@3 [b]Special Summons break yugioh, this can limit them.[/b]
[i]What we learned about Oppression is that it doesn't stop Special Summons, it just stops your opponent from recovering from your overextended attack.[/i]

- Exodias@3 [b]Head should be banned on this list.[/b]
- Foolish Burial@3 [b]Broken targets are banned.[/b]
It's funny because Dandy is @3.

- Spirit Reaper@0 [b]Stalling, stalling, everyone love stall. However, a case can be made for this to be at 3.[/b]
- Duality@0 [b]Because the decks being 37 cards is a good thing?[/b]
[i]Ban Upstart and Into the Void, I guess. Besides, in your words, all the broken targets have been banned.[/i]

- Messenger of Peace@0 [b]Stall.[/b]
- Other random stall@0 [b]Stall isn't fun, especially in large amounts.[/b]
[i]You seem to be under the impression that because a card is stall, it shouldn't be allowed in the game, which is silly.[/i]

- Demise@0 [b]ARA I think was the problem.[/b]
- Cyber Dragon@0 [b]Free 2100 beaters aren't good for the game. However, I will say that a case can be made for this to stay.[/b]
[i]"I don't know why they aren't good for the game, but I've decided they aren't."[/i]

- Cyber Twin@0 [b]Metamorphosis is at 3.[/b]
- Cyber End@0 [b]^[/b]
[i]k cool, I'd rather have Metamorphosiseseses to play with, anyway.[/i]

- Vayu@0 [b]Beatsticks from no where are good? [/b]
[i]I'm surprised he's surprised.[/i]

[/quote]
[quote name='Jord200' timestamp='1313713158' post='5453778']
Dandy=0
Necrovalley=0
Whirlwind=0
JD=0
Gateway=0
Brio=0
Gale=0


Launcher=3
Foolish=3
Mirror=3
Burial from DD=3
Plauge=3


I wish.....

I kind of don't like how this sounds. It would ruin a quite a few decks.
[/quote]
Butthurt over GKs, it seems. And isn't ruining decks exactly what a banlist is supposed to do?

[Flame Dragon]

[i]Librarian is @3. Fishborg trollin' [b]He shouldn't be. Even if you think he isn't broken getting 2 of them out is just stupid.[/b][/i]


[i]Banned Armor Master. Hilarious. [b]I was more so refering to BWW. Having played BW that is the card that causes the biggest beatings. My guess for Master being hit is he can just keep getting in and unless you have removal you can't do a damn thing about it.[/b][/i]

[i]Consistency + Milling power = Tier 1 Plants. The details don't matter: as long as Plants have Rykos, this, and maybe some other LS toys, they will be Tier 1-2, particularly with 3 Debris and 3 Dandy. [b]Nothing wrong with them being a strong deck. No matter how many cards you ban your still going to have tier 1 and 2 decks. It so long as they don't stifle the meta and other decks are able to have success then this isn't much of a problem[/b][/i]

[i]So I heard PoA lets you draw 2 cards. [b]It also fattens your deck by 3. However, I can see the argument for this being at 0.[/b][/i]

[i]There weren't any broken ones to begin with, aside from Stratos, and Stratos is only considered broken because it enhances consistency (in combination with being a decent beater). There was no monster this was limited because of to begin with, it was Limited because it was a 1-card toolbox, depending on what tools you included in your deck. [b]Increasing consistency isn't a bad thing though so long as it isn't in extreme ways. GB decks are pure toolbox (unless me understanding of toolbox decks is wrong), and they only loss 1 card. Getting 1 card allows for better playing and pushes skill as well as lowering luck. Those are good things. [/b][/i]

[i]What we learned about Oppression is that it doesn't stop Special Summons, it just stops your opponent from recovering from your overextended attack. [b]If you can overextend the same way you can now then the ban list failed. Good lists should keep the opponent from simply being able to dump 5 creatures into play in a single turn.[/b][/i]

It's funny because Dandy is @3. [b]Your safer putting Dandy at 0 then 3. Dandy is just very abuse able. [/b]

[i]Ban Upstart and Into the Void, I guess. Besides, in your words, all the broken targets have been banned. [b]Upstart ends with your opponent up 3K and Into the Void probably should be banned. It rewards overextending and helps people dump cards into your grave.[/b][/i]

[i]You seem to be under the impression that because a card is stall, it shouldn't be allowed in the game, which is silly. [b]Yea, I should correct that. Some stall is perfectly fine. But when one card basically locks down your opponents attacks for however long it may take for them to draw removal, something is wrong. It doesn't help that S/T are inherently harder to get rid of the creatures. That is why something like this and Bind are more likely to be listed then the stall creatures.[/b][/i]

[i]"I don't know why they aren't good for the game, but I've decided they aren't." [b]Cause someone plays creature X turn one. You then go CyDr + Other creature and take out 1/4 of their life. However, that argument isn't that good and agin, I can see CyDr being at 3 on a good list.[/b][/i]


[i]I'm surprised he's surprised. [b]It is if it gets in the grave via discard or main phase mill. [/b][/i]

[byak]

Fishborg should be at 0. It's a poorly designed card on its own and has stupid combos with Oyster Meister.

Holy s*** Symbol, Lonefire, and Dandylion are at three. That's retarded.

Also Metamorphosis and Naturia Exterio.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='ＴＨＥ ＧＯＤ ＯＦ ＯＳＩＲＩＳ' timestamp='1313716928' post='5453899']
Holy s*** Symbol, Lonefire, and Dandylion are at three. That's retarded.[/quote]
I thought I saw Lonefire@0.
If not, then....
Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Dandy
Symbols -> Lonefire -> Lonefire tributes Dandy for another Dandy
Field has Lonefire, Dandy, and 2 tokens.

[quote name='ＴＨＥ ＧＯＤ ＯＦ ＯＳＩＲＩＳ' timestamp='1313716928' post='5453899']Also Metamorphosis and Naturia Exterio.
[/quote]
Exterio to 0.
Metamorph is more fun.

[byak]

Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Dandylion
Symbol of Heritage Lonefire -> Tytannial, Princess of Camelias

+ Triple Royal Oppression, no mass removal, etc.

get mad

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='arkel' timestamp='1313516378' post='5447648']
Banned:

Arcana Force 0 – the Fool
Arcanite Magician
Blackwing Armor Master
Chain Strike
Five-Headed Dragon
Gladiator Beast Gyzarus
Gold Sarcophagus
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
Gravity Bind
Mage Power
Magic Cylinder
Pot of Duality
Rekindling
Snipe Hunter
United We Stand
[/quote]
I'm just gonna point these out and ask why.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='ＴＨＥ ＧＯＤ ＯＦ ＯＳＩＲＩＳ' timestamp='1313717490' post='5453914']
Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Dandylion
Symbol of Heritage Lonefire -> Tytannial, Princess of Camelias

+ Triple Royal Oppression, no mass removal, etc.

get mad
[/quote]
Basically a coin-flip rage-comic format.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Miror B.' timestamp='1313717497' post='5453915']
why.
[/quote]
Arcana Force 0 – the Fool [b]You have Fool on the list but not Marshmallon? They are basically the same, single cards that shut down the opponent's ability to attack until they draw into removal.[/b]
Arcanite Magician [b]My guess is because of how easy it is to abuse spell counters. Side from that idk[/b]
Blackwing Armor Master [b]It's like Marshmallon, only it eats close to 1/4 your life every time it hits you[/b]
Chain Strike [b]My guess is combos. Used right it can do a lot of damage very quickly[/b]
Five-Headed Dragon [b]FuFu is stupid with this, but with that banned Dragon's Mirror would be the only other reason. The question then becomes should 1 spell be able to make a 5K creature?[/b]
Gladiator Beast Gyzarus [b]It's stupidly easy to summon, Monarch size, kills 2 cards, and then continues to set up GB combos. Yea, you don't see that?[/b]
Gold Sarcophagus [b]More of a preference card. Some people don't like the ability to tutor up any card, even with a small delay.[/b]
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness [b]Rewards you for playing badly.[/b]
Gravity Bind [b]See, one card shouldn't shut down attacking. This more so because S/T are harder to get rid of then creatures.[/b]
Mage Power [b]Easily gives a huge boost at no cost. Especially with Heavy gone.[/b]
Magic Cylinder [b]At 3 the amount of damage this will end up doing is insane and I can't see a good argument for how it's good for the game[/b]
Pot of Duality [b]Card draw made to easy.[/b]
Rekindling [b]Please tell me your joking? You seriously don't see what this can do? OTK, Mass Synchro/XYZ should answer the question well enough.[/b]
Snipe Hunter [b]Pushes luck to much to be in a skill based format.[/b]
United We Stand [b]Massive ATK increase is massive. Even in a normal game this easily gives a 2400 boost. For one card, that is to much.[/b]


[quote name='ＴＨＥ ＧＯＤ ＯＦ ＯＳＩＲＩＳ' timestamp='1313716928' post='5453899']
Fishborg should be at 0. It's a poorly designed card on its own and has stupid combos with Oyster Meister.

Also Metamorphosis and Naturia Exterio.
[/quote]
Discard a card and bring him back so long as a condition is meet doesn't seem that bad honestly. I'm not sure what kind of stupid combo this may have with Meister.

Exterio would need to go with Metamorphosis around.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1313722112' post='5454059']
Discard a card and bring him back so long as a condition is meet doesn't seem that bad honestly. I'm not sure what kind of stupid combo this may have with Meister.[/quote]
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080601184159/yugioh/images/thumb/a/ad/SuperancientDeepseaKingCoelacanthPTDN-EN-UR-1E.png/300px-SuperancientDeepseaKingCoelacanthPTDN-EN-UR-1E.png[/img]

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1313722367' post='5454063']
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080601184159/yugioh/images/thumb/a/ad/SuperancientDeepseaKingCoelacanthPTDN-EN-UR-1E.png/300px-SuperancientDeepseaKingCoelacanthPTDN-EN-UR-1E.png[/img]
[/quote]
Several times I've said he should be banned. So, what else side from him breaks Fishborg?

[Blake]

Cloudians use Fishborg. And Quasar with it. So hi.

[NumberCruncher]

Are we starting to see the problem with this 3-0 Banlist [s]lack of[/s] logic now?

And how is Fishborg and Librarian @3, but Messenger of Peace and Armor Master @ 0?

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1313725228' post='5454129']
Cloudians use Fishborg. And Quasar with it. So hi.
[/quote]
Because a card can be used in a few different decks means it's broken?

[quote name='NumberCruncher' timestamp='1313730071' post='5454352']
Are we starting to see the problem with this 3-0 Banlist [s]lack of[/s] logic now?

And how is Fishborg and Librarian @3, but Messenger of Peace and Armor Master @ 0?
[/quote]
Because this is just rough draft. If you've read anything I posted Librarian should be banned and Fishborg isn't a problem, Coelacanth is.

And again, Messenger of Peace removes most people's decks the ability to attack. The fact that as a spell it is harder to destroy doesn't help. Armor Master is a Marshmallon that can eat close to 1/4 your life each time he hits you. I've also said both of these things.

Yes, my logic might not be perfect, yes I've been out of the game for over a year now, yes this isn't a perfect list (I clearly have problems with it too), but if you could give me a reason why my explanations aren't good enough then maybe we can stop spinning our wheels and actually get somewhere in this discussion.

[Blake]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1313732098' post='5454423']
Because a card can be used in a few different decks means it's broken?
[/quote]
When that card generates craploads of advantage when put with Librarians and Formula, yes, yes it does.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1313732188' post='5454427']
When that card generates craploads of advantage when put with Librarians and Formula, yes, yes it does.
[/quote]


[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1313634804' post='5451870']
Librarian all should be at 0 on a good list.
[/quote]
Try again

[Blake]

See, the problem is, it's STILL a renewable tuner that pairs up well with Oyster Meister.

So, if it's so blameless, why is it @0 on the nw list, when Formula and Librarian, used in MORE decks than Fish, at 1?

[Dr. Cakey]

Jeez, I've tried writing this post like three times and I keep starting over. Here we go.

The list we have been given is bad, but that's not the fault of the logic. The logic is, however, fundamentally unsound. There [i]is[/i] a difference between having 1 copy of a card in your deck and having 3 - besides luck of the draw. One Cyber Dragon is an early lead, three Cyber Dragons is LIGHT Beat.

EDIT: You realize where this is Fishborg discussion is leading? You're going to have to continue banning cards just to keep Fishbrog around.