MLP FiM :D

[Sleepy]

I find it weird that Luna and Cadence went to help. Mainly because I thought Luna would limit herself to her work inside people's dreams since that on it's own sounds very time-consuming and hard when one realizes it's working on a personal level with each individual on Equestria all night long. As for Cadence, how long is the Crystal Empire from Ponyville exactly? It sounded very casual that she came along and went away in a puff off-screen.

 

I'd want to see a reunion like that in the near future. I've never seen Luna and Cadence interact, if together at all.

In fact, I'm also curious about the way Cadence got her princess tittle.

 

I don't know about Celestia. I've been thinking several things that could have been, but scrap them for something else and as a result I've been writing this post for a while deleting and re-writing these last couple of lines.

 

 

 

I actually like this episode for two reasons despite it being a Rarity episode in a sense; she's my least favorite of the mane six.

 

First off it is probably the BEST Spike centered episode we've ever seen. I mean here he is playing a central role and it isn't for comic relief or anything else. he is given a clear problem and has to figure out what to do about it all the while having Owlicious (spelling?) remind him he might not be doing the right thing.

 

Secondly we get to see MORE of Twilight actually being a Princess for once. Maybe not as much as some might want, but for me it was a good amount. Hearing the Mayor refer to Twilight as "Princess Twilight" and the fact she was constantly running around Ponyville trying to figure out what was going on AND stop it . . . yeah . . . it was good. Also the ending where we also find out that Twilight, Cadence, AND Luna had to come and clean up the dark magic.

 

Now some people *coughArmcough* have made mention of why Celestia wasn't assisting as well.

 

Honestly?

 

I think Celestia would be useless. Yes, we've seen that she can preform dark magic and by that knows about it, but when it comes down to it Luna and Cadence have MUCH more experience than she does.

 

Now here is a question to the rest of you. I'm sure we all have an OC for MLP:FiM; I know I do. So, what would your OC be doing in this episode and why?

 

I have an OC, though I am thinking on re-designing it.

My OC would pretty much be me, so as sad as it might sound it'd just be doing her own business. If Rarity got to her and did something (which most likely she did considering she covered all of Ponyville) I'd either be asking Twilight or Zecora on how to fix my place.

[Jake the Sage]

I find it weird that Luna and Cadence went to help. Mainly because I thought Luna would limit herself to her work inside people's dreams since that on it's own sounds very time-consuming and hard when one realizes it's working on a personal level with each individual on Equestria all night long.

I actually think Luna only helps people in their dreams when they need it the most. So for me I don't see her meeting everyone in their dreams every night. Maybe a couple dozen but nothing that couldn't be finished in a few hours. I think Luna does what Celestia does when not raising the sun, running Equestria while keeping an eye out for possible threats.
 

As for Cadence, how long is the Crystal Empire from Ponyville exactly? It sounded very casual that she came along and went away in a puff off-screen.

I'm also curious about the way Cadence got her princess tittle.

 

Well I think the Crystal Empire is roughly a half days trip by train. If Cadence pushed herself I'm sure she could get to Ponyville in a few hours. You have to remeber that the Crystal Empire is at the far north of Equestria.

As for how she got her title as Princess i dunno. To be honest I think it was when she became an Alicorn- like Twilight.
 

My OC would pretty much be me, so as sad as it might sound it'd just be doing her own business. If Rarity got to her and did something (which most likely she did considering she covered all of Ponyville) I'd either be asking Twilight or Zecora on how to fix my place.

 

My OC, being a history professor for the Crystal Empire, would have traveled with Princess Cadence to Ponyville; because his special magic allows him to connect doors together, though Ponyville is normally past his spells area limit, but he can get to Ponyville because he used to live there. From there he'd probably just end up running around the town looking for whoever was causing the ruckus. So . . . yeah . . . a whole lot of running for nothing (>>)

[Sleepy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE2rzeQjkZQ

 

 

Also, has anyone watched the season finale teaser? 

[Toffee.]

Also, has anyone watched the season finale teaser?

Exploding tree houses.
Celestia n' friends being "banished".
Post apoc setting.
Shit gets real now.

[Jake the Sage]

For those who HAVEN'T seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvLHM4dvZc

 

PLEASE LET THE VILLAIN BE TIREK!!!

 

Also I dislike, bordering on hate, 'Equestria Games" (>^\_^/>)

[Astro Dude]

Not to sound like a noob but whose Tirek?

[Sleepy]

Not to sound like a noob but whose Tirek?

That's fine, I also had never heard of him before until people started talking about him. Surprising what some fans can dig in, right?
After a.. hmm I couldn't call it "investigation" because the data just jumped in front of my face... apparently he is an antagonist centaur from generation 1. 

 

Interesting how all big villains make their return one way or the other.

Nightmare Moon? Luna is there, and the moon creatures from the comics are probably what she refers to when she says "we".

Discord occasionally comes in and even goes as far as helping out.

Crysalis? Comics show her alternate dimension self to be the owner of an element, along with Trixie, the Flim Flam brothers, and Derpy.

King Sombra is also getting some spotlight on the comics.... As an alter-ego that is basically the equivalent of Celestia (or so I understood from what I saw), and Celestia being an old lover, which can easily generate a theory about why Celestia didn't go there herself (couldn't bear looking at him like that) during the Crystal Empire debut episode. Or why the TV show left him so vague (they can be more daring in the comics).

 

I'm looking forward to next week's episode.

 

EDIT: A quick Google search gave me this. It sounds pretty epic and I DID hear of that special a few years ago, so yay.

http://bronies.wikia.com/wiki/Tirek

[Sleepy]

Season finale just finished processing on YouTube. Enjoy~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTgIRBG01j0

[Sleepy]

[spoiler=Thoughts]

 

I can understand Discord doing what he did. He's the god of chaos and we can't really expect him to walk a straight road, and I believe his motivations considering other than Fluttershy all the others weren't real friends. Everyone would be instantly annoyed the moment he'd appear and even Celestia told Twilight to keep the elements just in case back in the reforming episode, something that Discord did hear. It took a tempting villain to crumble his fake trust in pony-kind.

I'd expect him to at least tell Tirek to spare Fluttershy, but that'd be too much shipping I suppose.

 

I really wanna see anything with Discord in it next season because I'm curious how all this has evolved. Surely at least one of them must have lingering sourness from this episode.

 

Oh but I'm not really sure how much Discord was actually acting. We could see that it was legit pain in his face when Tirek got the mane six five and Spike. Then, he did have that "Jackpot" expression when he got that item from Tirek AND they all instantly knew it was most likely the remaining key when he gave it to Twilight. I'm tempted to think the only unexpected part was Tirek stealing his powers.

 

Overall I didn't like their new looks. Their hair was too obnoxiously big and.. and.. IDK... over the top?, I just didn't like it. I expected the change in colors but nothing else, and that maybe the promotional images would be looking worse than the actual show. I prefer how they look just wearing the elements. Save for Applejack. She's what I expected to see and oddly enough the transformation I like the most, followed maybe by Twilight because those wings.

Other than that, I liked the episode.

[/spoiler]

[Βyakuya]

[spoiler=I too, add my thoughts]

It's been a while since I've conversed about this, and pretty much I was thoroughly entertained and thrilled with the Season Finale we got. Early in the beginning of the Season around when Twilight became a princess, I did question and put up the question that what does it mean now that Twilight is a princess and what can go beyond that. Pretty much, the issue was taken on pretty well, as Twilight gets a new role and castle. Though, it would be a little strange to think that the box would right after unleashing the leftover reserves of power, it instantly manifested into a treehouse-esque form of her previous treehouse.

 

Tirek was a pretty badass villain that was what Sombra was SUPPOSED to be. Not only he was menacing in appearance, but he actually had a voice with him that was actually expressed in actual dialogue...not to mention he had a great voice actor. I wish that as his power grew from Shining Armor's magic stealing, so that he would at least be a little more menacing and his voice maybe would have deepened, but I guess it would have been too scary for the children. And I also wanted to see at least a bit of Scorpan, but eh.... he was just a part of the exposition. But TIrek is definitely an improved Sombra; He had strong intentions of ridding every pony of their strengths and powers and rule over all, while having an iron fist towards friendship.

 

Discord was a little debatable in the first half; I would think that hypnotism would be one way to go but it would really have taken that much coercion to make him turn...I did see at times some regret in his eyes as Tirek grew stronger but overall he just seemed like a dick when he imprisoned the Mane 6-1. But probably he was aligning since he was naturally a god of chaos, but he still had latent feelings for friendship and shared it with Tirek, but overall I'd say he felt like a total fool after his failed "friendship".

 

So I guess...the Tree of Harmony was like a charging port for the Elements and when returned the combined power can be re-accessed through a box connecting the original linkage of the elements to the respective ponies? And then they get Mega Evoltuions or rather, Rainbow forms?........Ehhhh..........ehh...I'll go with it. As long as they don't make those forms as a huge matter or seen often I will be fine.

 

Overall, the ending was pretty good: great villain, comeuppance and further appreciation for our favorite Discord, reappearance of minor ponies who helped formulate keys, and good, sweet music from the Alicorns (well at least their purposes and duty are linked in this episode so its justified they aren't all that lazy) and the Royal Mane 6. Wasn't too predictable, and had some lasting, redeeming qualities. Hasbro did it again.

 

 

 

...But Season 5....now what?

[/spoiler]

[Astro Dude]

All is summed up in one word:

 

Awesome!

[Jake the Sage]

I'm tempted to think the only unexpected part was Tirek stealing his powers.

 

For Discord or the fans? I honestly thought that Discord was playing Tirek the entire time, since he DID give Twilight the book with the clues literally pointed out for her. So he knows in some sense that they're the keys to the box, since he mentions it just before he hands her the book. But I'll admit I totally did NOT see Tirek stealing Discord's powers. That floored me and I had to pause my TV to recompose myself at the shock that SOMEONE actually managed to steal the powers from Chaos Personified!

 

Overall I didn't like their new looks. Their hair was too obnoxiously big and.. and.. IDK... over the top?, I just didn't like it. I expected the change in colors but nothing else, and that maybe the promotional images would be looking worse than the actual show. I prefer how they look just wearing the elements. Save for Applejack. She's what I expected to see and oddly enough the transformation I like the most, followed maybe by Twilight because those wings.

 

Yeah the new designs look too over-the-top and cheesy for me. Yet, with some things that I've said that about in the past, I'll give it time and see if it sinks in and I can enjoy it.

 

It's been a while since I've conversed about this, and pretty much I was thoroughly entertained and thrilled with the Season Finale we got. Early in the beginning of the Season around when Twilight became a princess, I did question and put up the question that what does it mean now that Twilight is a princess and what can go beyond that. Pretty much, the issue was taken on pretty well, as Twilight gets a new role and castle.

 

In retrospect that they did with Twilight and her Princesshood was brilliant! All this time I remember saying to myself, "She's a Princess for Luna's sake! Why aren't they giving her any royal duties!?" Now we can look back and see that they did that so that it could cause the conflict for these two episodes. By not addressing Twilight being a princess it made fans focus on it more and so when we finally learn what she is going to do as a Princess, and essentially FINALLY filling her role as one, is much more gratifying.

 

Tirek was a pretty badass villain that was what Sombra was SUPPOSED to be. Not only he was menacing in appearance, but he actually had a voice with him that was actually expressed in actual dialogue...not to mention he had a great voice actor.But Tirek is definitely an improved Sombra; He had strong intentions of ridding every pony of their strengths and powers and rule over all, while having an iron fist towards friendship.

 

While I'll admit that canon Sombra is a horrible waste of a character, in fandom he is one of the most interesting villains of the entire story- more so than Nightmare Moon. Because of his lack of screen time the fans have been able to give him the kind of personality they wanted. So out of this a smooth, almost mustache stroking tempter came into being. Don't believe me?

 

Watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvmbAb5NlM

 

But, yes, as of the end of Season 4 Tirek is THE best villain out of My Little Pony- unfortunately knocking Discord to Number 2. He is menacing and actually believable. I KNOW that they were not going to have him win, but I was on the edge of my seat rooting for Twilight to beat him when they were fighting each other.

 

I also like that Starswirl the Bearded was the one who sent him to Tartarus. NOT Celestia or Luna! That just makes the greatest unicorn wizard even grander! And, considering I finished reading a fan fiction which shows him as an essentric genius/madpony I can't help but laugh and wonder, "Did he actually defeat Tirek on purpose or did Tirek happen to get between Starswirl and something else he was interested in?"

 

Story I am referring too -> The Education of Clover the Clever

 

Discord was a little debatable in the first half; I would think that hypnotism would be one way to go but it would really have taken that much coercion to make him turn...I did see at times some regret in his eyes as Tirek grew stronger but overall he just seemed like a dick when he imprisoned the Mane 6-1. But probably he was aligning since he was naturally a god of chaos, but he still had latent feelings for friendship and shared it with Tirek, but overall I'd say he felt like a total fool after his failed "friendship".

 

As I've stated above, I think Discord was working with Tirek for two reasons. One he needed to get Twilight her key. He KNEW how to open the box. I've said that before as well. So I think was going to make Twilight do something for her friends, which is why Discord had Tirek capture them, and thus get her key. Tirek betraying him was probably NOT part of his plan, and in a round-about way he ended up giving her the key instead of her earning it in another fashion.

 

Why did Discord join Tirek? Well beyond what I've just said I think he also did it because, well, Tirek prodded the ONE weakness he had- his Pride. When you think about it Discord doesn't do anything because he's really evil. He is not in it out of hate, spite, greed, whatever. He makes chaos because he takes PRIDE in chaos. So when Tirek insults him for abandoning his role as the God of Chaos for the more lowly title of "Pony Currier", or whatever Tirek called him, Discord was tricked.

 

...But Season 5....now what?

 

I dunno . . .

 

All is summed up in one word:

 

Awesome!

 

 

Okay now I am going to ask another OC question. What is/was your OC(s) doing during these episodes?

[Sleepy]

For Discord or the fans? I honestly thought that Discord was playing Tirek the entire time, since he DID give Twilight the book with the clues literally pointed out for her. So he knows in some sense that they're the keys to the box, since he mentions it just before he hands her the book. But I'll admit I totally did NOT see Tirek stealing Discord's powers. That floored me and I had to pause my TV to recompose myself at the shock that SOMEONE actually managed to steal the powers from Chaos Personified!

 

I also like that Starswirl the Bearded was the one who sent him to Tartarus. NOT Celestia or Luna! That just makes the greatest unicorn wizard even grander! And, considering I finished reading a fan fiction which shows him as an essentric genius/madpony I can't help but laugh and wonder, "Did he actually defeat Tirek on purpose or did Tirek happen to get between Starswirl and something else he was interested in?"

 

As I've stated above, I think Discord was working with Tirek for two reasons. One he needed to get Twilight her key. He KNEW how to open the box. I've said that before as well. So I think was going to make Twilight do something for her friends, which is why Discord had Tirek capture them, and thus get her key. Tirek betraying him was probably NOT part of his plan, and in a round-about way he ended up giving her the key instead of her earning it in another fashion.

 

Okay now I am going to ask another OC question. What is/was your OC(s) doing during these episodes?

When I said surprise, I think both ways would work. Discord MAYBE didn't see it coming. I also thought he was doing all this for the sake of the 6th key, after all he did have awfully detailed knowledge of it, but did not see his own power being taken as a possible scenario. In the same way, what fans would expect that to happen? It was the most shocking/traumatizing part of the episode for me. I still have trouble fully accepting it was even possible.

 

It's fine since even Discord could grow as a character. Being Chaos himself, the situation got out of even his control, and so that moment he knew he had screwed up majorly. Though we also saw that Discord's power, previously only smaller than the one of the Elements of Harmony, is pretty much measured this time. Tirek with the boost of all Earth/Pegasus/Unicorn ponies in Equestria, plus the power of Discord, could only amount to the power of the 4 princesses combined (all in Twilight). At least I thought Discord looked a lot less omnipotent from that fight.

 

 

Starswirl and Sombra are great for the show altogether. Sombra's blank traits give him so much potential, and Starswirl is more and more relevant and legendary the more the show talks about him, to the point where I'd like to see a prequel episode to his time, kind of like Avatar Wan's two-parter from The Legend of Korra. It's interesting because the first time he was mentioned it just looked like Twilight was being nerdy with her Nightmare Night disguise of some obscure science magic figure.

 

 

Not lying. My character would have probably been caught and drained. It's a unicorn so it'd be from the early victims that happened when the population was still not well informed of the threat. In which case I'd probably be looking everywhere at Twilight's library for something that helped me go back to normal. Afterwards I'd go look for Zecora and probably stay there since she seems to be out of all this hassle not being a pony and living in the middle of the wild and all....

[Jake the Sage]

Starswirl and Sombra are great for the show altogether. Sombra's blank traits give him so much potential, and Starswirl is more and more relevant and legendary the more the show talks about him, to the point where I'd like to see a prequel episode to his time, kind of like Avatar Wan's two-parter from The Legend of Korra. It's interesting because the first time he was mentioned it just looked like Twilight was being nerdy with her Nightmare Night disguise of some obscure science magic figure.

 

I find that Starswirl is generally given the type of personality as either a very essentric genius boardering on madpony. But I don't think they'll ever do an actual episode with Starswirl. Though we DO have Starswirl in the comics which is canon as well.

 

Also I always figured that Starswirl was famous like Nostradamus is. People KNOW what Nostradamus is famous for, but really don't know a thing about him.

 

Not lying. My character would have probably been caught and drained. It's a unicorn so it'd be from the early victims that happened when the population was still not well informed of the threat. In which case I'd probably be looking everywhere at Twilight's library for something that helped me go back to normal. Afterwards I'd go look for Zecora and probably stay there since she seems to be out of all this hassle not being a pony and living in the middle of the wild and all....

 

Well thankfully "Key Ring" wasn't in Canterlot or Ponyville, so he wouldn't be taken out too quickly. However when Tirek goes to the Crystal Empire he'd definately be screwed. And, being loyal as he is, he'd try and utterly fail to find his way through the Crystal Empire to warn Shining Armor. Without his magic he'd be unable to use his magic to get to the palace easily.

 

"Brick Wall" would be taken out quickly since he's a Royal Guard.

 

Mistletoe Kiss would not be harmed since she's a Changling. Because of that she'd probably try and help everyone as best she could.

[Toffee.]

Ok so... got done watching it and what-not.
Discord being traitorous wasn't really a surprise for me, although I loved the fact he was helping Tirek; Was interesting for the fact it adds to Discord.
Aside from that, I don't really have any other comments; This episode was just too good.
('Course, I could comment on some of the small things, but ehh)

[evilfusion]

Considering Discord's first line of thought when the Elements disappeared, him taking the opportunity to return to his old ways was not that surprising. Discord overall operates on his own whims, and he probably hadn't considered the possibility that Tirek would become strong enough to take HIS power. Only the Elements have ever been able to keep him in check in terms of having manifestable power over him. He probably saw it as an opportunity to just let things get chaotic as he saw fit, and be in control again, something he hasn't really been able to do since reforming.

 

He definitely noticed the transfer of magic (unsure if he knew what actually happened), but he did not reveal that information to Tirek. Likewise, he never revealed that Twilight was an alicorn until Tirek explicitly noticed it. He also showed increasing discomfort at Tirek's actions. Discord's methods have always been for his own amusement. Even at his worst, he wasn't truly sadistic like Tirek was. He was a kid with his toys, even if those toys were living ponies.

 

Tirek had also given Discord that medallion prior to them ever making a move on the Mane cast, so Discord probably connected their relationship to a similar "friendship", but one that served HIS interests rather than him serving their interests. The betrayal was easy to see coming, though I also was shocked that Tirek actually could absorb Discord's magic.

 

That battle between Tirek and Twilight was awesome...probably one of the best action scenes in the entire series.

 

How Tirek really USES the power he has is pretty vague. While he was capable of absorbing Discord's power, Discord was taken completely off-guard, so it might not be a fair measure of how strong Discord is compared to the alicorn magic. Tirek didn't really use the abilities or power of his victims, it just seemed to add to his own collective strength.

 

All in all, this was one of my favorite episodes, though I admit I skipped most of Season 4 primarily from disinterest.

[Toffee.]

though I admit I skipped most of Season 4 primarily from disinterest.

Oh, but Season 4 has cool episodes in it.
(Even if the lessons at the end were semi-redundant)

[evilfusion]

Oh, but Season 4 has cool episodes in it.
(Even if the lessons at the end were semi-redundant)

 

It did, and I'll probably go back to them eventually.

[Astro Dude]

For Discord or the fans? I honestly thought that Discord was playing Tirek the entire time, since he DID give Twilight the book with the clues literally pointed out for her. So he knows in some sense that they're the keys to the box, since he mentions it just before he hands her the book. But I'll admit I totally did NOT see Tirek stealing Discord's powers. That floored me and I had to pause my TV to recompose myself at the shock that SOMEONE actually managed to steal the powers from Chaos Personified!

 

 

Yeah the new designs look too over-the-top and cheesy for me. Yet, with some things that I've said that about in the past, I'll give it time and see if it sinks in and I can enjoy it.

 

 

In retrospect that they did with Twilight and her Princesshood was brilliant! All this time I remember saying to myself, "She's a Princess for Luna's sake! Why aren't they giving her any royal duties!?" Now we can look back and see that they did that so that it could cause the conflict for these two episodes. By not addressing Twilight being a princess it made fans focus on it more and so when we finally learn what she is going to do as a Princess, and essentially FINALLY filling her role as one, is much more gratifying.

 

 

While I'll admit that canon Sombra is a horrible waste of a character, in fandom he is one of the most interesting villains of the entire story- more so than Nightmare Moon. Because of his lack of screen time the fans have been able to give him the kind of personality they wanted. So out of this a smooth, almost mustache stroking tempter came into being. Don't believe me?

 

Watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvmbAb5NlM

 

But, yes, as of the end of Season 4 Tirek is THE best villain out of My Little Pony- unfortunately knocking Discord to Number 2. He is menacing and actually believable. I KNOW that they were not going to have him win, but I was on the edge of my seat rooting for Twilight to beat him when they were fighting each other.

 

I also like that Starswirl the Bearded was the one who sent him to Tartarus. NOT Celestia or Luna! That just makes the greatest unicorn wizard even grander! And, considering I finished reading a fan fiction which shows him as an essentric genius/madpony I can't help but laugh and wonder, "Did he actually defeat Tirek on purpose or did Tirek happen to get between Starswirl and something else he was interested in?"

 

Story I am referring too -> The Education of Clover the Clever

 

 

As I've stated above, I think Discord was working with Tirek for two reasons. One he needed to get Twilight her key. He KNEW how to open the box. I've said that before as well. So I think was going to make Twilight do something for her friends, which is why Discord had Tirek capture them, and thus get her key. Tirek betraying him was probably NOT part of his plan, and in a round-about way he ended up giving her the key instead of her earning it in another fashion.

 

Why did Discord join Tirek? Well beyond what I've just said I think he also did it because, well, Tirek prodded the ONE weakness he had- his Pride. When you think about it Discord doesn't do anything because he's really evil. He is not in it out of hate, spite, greed, whatever. He makes chaos because he takes PRIDE in chaos. So when Tirek insults him for abandoning his role as the God of Chaos for the more lowly title of "Pony Currier", or whatever Tirek called him, Discord was tricked.

 

 

I dunno . . .

 

 

 

Okay now I am going to ask another OC question. What is/was your OC(s) doing during these episodes?

Actually, I was gonna put in the "MLP America" video, but then replaced it with AWESOME cause it had swearing and I was in enough trouble as it is.

[Jake the Sage]

So does anyone know when Equestria Girls 2 is going to premier or, y'know, any other news?

[Astro Dude]

Or MLP season 5. Maybe then the CMC will get their cutie marks.

[Jake the Sage]

Or MLP season 5. Maybe then the CMC will get their cutie marks.

 

Y'know I'm not that interested in seeing the CMC get their cutie marks anytime soon. I mean I like having them just run around and do what they've always been doing. Besides we already know what they're going to be getting as cutie marks, or at the very least what each of their special talents are, so it's not that big of a mystery.

 

Apple Bloom will get a cutie mark in construction

Sweetie Belle will get a cutie mark in singing

Scootaloo will get a cutie mark in dancing.

 

Heh . . . Scoots dancing. THAT will take a while to sink into that tomboyish skull of hers (X3)

[Toffee.]

So does anyone know when Equestria Girls 2 is going to premier or, y'know, any other news?

Wiki says Rainbow Rocks is in September of this year.

As for Season 5....

[Astro Dude]

My reaction:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n88SKnS1vKc

[Sleepy]

Found something interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfEsGkcydi8