The problem with most fifth generation music.

[Brendano Harns]

And when I use legendary theme music, I use that term to describe the class of the Pokemon, not the music.

I'll probably get a "This has already been done," or "Why would anyone care about this?" Maybe I'll even get someone defending the music to the death. I don't know, and I don't care at the moment.

As time goes on and each generation has been released, the quality of the music in each Pokemon game decreases, or at least after 3rd generation it does. Of course by quality I don't mean lack-of-static/other, but rather the quality of the way the music is written.

Let's start off by listening to the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR1KJYEvnGw


The song leaves me feeling disappointed at about 0:15, or rather a few seconds afterwards, but that's when the transition begins. Why? Well, for one, it isn't music that makes you feel as if something about 10 foot and dangerous is attacking. The music reminds me more of a friendly battle, actually. I wouldn't play the happy interludes as battle music even during a game of Jenga, or Candyland.

Well, maybe Candyland, however that is beside the point.

There are those saying that the music is over-criticized, along with the rest of the fifth generation music, and to them I say to remember battle music such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0SPoAdLUbw


and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&v=4NSS2FnvLDA&annotation_id=annotation_399274


and to tell me you're just as satisfied with those as the fifth generation music.

The main problem that these songs don't have are the happy-go-lucky bridges. The kill the mood, and bore the listener.

Agree? Disagree?

Comment below. If you're going to comment, state your opinion, then back it up, please. Just don't hack each other's heads off over the issue, or flame, spam, trolololol or annoy anyone with anything.

[Blake]

The mood of the Legendary fight in Gen. 5 is different than in Gen 3. In Gen 3, the battle is more fate of the world, right there. N's Theme/Ghestis' theme cover that. The legendary theme in Gen. 5 is used for Reshiram/Zekrom, and is proving that you can BEFRIEND it. Of course it's happy-go-lucky.

Gen 5 music is really good overall, as is most Pokemon music. N's theme and Plasma's theme are some of the best in the whole series.

[Brendano Harns]

[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1310353874' post='5344567']
The mood of the Legendary fight in Gen. 5 is different than in Gen 3. In Gen 3, the battle is more fate of the world, right there. N's Theme/Ghestis' theme cover that. The legendary theme in Gen. 5 is used for Reshiram/Zekrom, and is proving that you can BEFRIEND it. Of course it's happy-go-lucky.

Gen 5 music is really good overall, as is most Pokemon music. N's theme and Plasma's theme are some of the best in the whole series.
[/quote]

N's Theme, or N's Battle Theme?

N's theme is lacking a bit intensiveness.

N's battle theme lacks no intensiveness, but has no hook to it during most the song.

If we listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s6IkFafrK4 towards the end at about 2:15 the hook can be heard quite clearly, and the song might have improved if out-of-tune notes weren't run over top of the hook. However, at about 1:09, the hook is heard transitioning into being covered up by horns which are out of tune. Clashing chords can work effectively, but it is not done directly here. If there is going to be a clash of chords, it is better done loudly than softly (as in proportion to the song). While the out-of-tune horns are loud (as in proportion to the song), the chord (namely the hook) they are clashing with is not heard nearly as loud as the horns.

...and that's why I included "most" in the title. I do enjoy the Team Plasma Grunt battle music as well. The song was done correctly in creating the proper feel/emotion.

[Tentacruel]

*coughnostalgiafagcough*


I disagree. Gen V's music was absolutely wonderful.

[Dark]

I looked at the title and I clicked the thread in hopes that the TC wasn't talking about the Pokemon series. It was a rude awakening.

In my opinion, the fifth generation has some of the best music I've ever heard from video games. I'm an avid video game music fan, and I've listened to every Pokemon soundtrack in complete nature. Every single song from every single game. And I converted the best of them into mp3 files and put them on my iTunes. Let's look at some numbers.

Gen I: 5 Songs
Gen II: 0 Songs
Gen III: 17 Songs
Gen I Remakes: 18 Songs
Gen IV: 17 Songs
Gen II Remakes: 22 Songs
Gen V: [b]63[/b] Songs

I think that comes to a pretty evident conclusion. I liked more than three-fourths of the entire soundtrack, whereas for other generations, I barely liked any of it. In fact, for the original GSC soundtrack, I liked none of it. Pokemon music has gotten better over time, not worse. I have heated debates with everyone I meet about how HGSS has an infinitely better soundtrack than GSC because the composer put more work into it, more emotion into it, more feelings.

You think Black and White lacks feeling? The storyline wasn't particularly stressful, whereas in Gen III, it was a life-or-death situation. I haven't actually finished Pokemon Black, but from what I've played, it doesn't sound like an overly-dramatized kind of game where every track needs a lot of sick drum beats and dramatic oomph.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzfQhV3G_MU]Here's emotion for you, quite literally.[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txvkmH4h5kQ]Why not try some more?[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx0WJF-RJ3w]I can do this all day, you know.[/url]

Some tracks were lacking in emotion, I understand, but the soundtrack as a whole was extremely well-composed.

[Brendano Harns]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1310434223' post='5346775']
I looked at the title and I clicked the thread in hopes that the TC wasn't talking about the Pokemon series. It was a rude awakening.

In my opinion, the fifth generation has some of the best music I've ever heard from video games. I'm an avid video game music fan, and I've listened to every Pokemon soundtrack in complete nature. Every single song from every single game. And I converted the best of them into mp3 files and put them on my iTunes. Let's look at some numbers.

Gen I: 5 Songs
Gen II: 0 Songs
Gen III: 17 Songs
Gen I Remakes: 18 Songs
Gen IV: 17 Songs
Gen II Remakes: 22 Songs
Gen V: [b]63[/b] Songs

I think that comes to a pretty evident conclusion. I liked more than three-fourths of the entire soundtrack, whereas for other generations, I barely liked any of it. In fact, for the original GSC soundtrack, I liked none of it. Pokemon music has gotten better over time, not worse. I have heated debates with everyone I meet about how HGSS has an infinitely better soundtrack than GSC because the composer put more work into it, more emotion into it, more feelings.

You think Black and White lacks feeling? The storyline wasn't particularly stressful, whereas in Gen III, it was a life-or-death situation. I haven't actually finished Pokemon Black, but from what I've played, it doesn't sound like an overly-dramatized kind of game where every track needs a lot of sick drum beats and dramatic oomph.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzfQhV3G_MU]Here's emotion for you, quite literally.[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txvkmH4h5kQ]Why not try some more?[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx0WJF-RJ3w]I can do this all day, you know.[/url]

Some tracks were lacking in emotion, I understand, but the soundtrack as a whole was extremely well-composed.
[/quote]

Well. As long as [b]you[/b] like them, they must be good, eh? How's that for some cold, hard facts. If I had known you liked the music, I never would have commented negatively on any of it. [/sarcasm]

Besides that awkward beginning, you bring good points to the table.


[i]In Gen III, it was a life or death situation."[/i]

This is true, and this may account for the intense music in these games. However, I also commented on Lance/Red's theme in Generation 2. This was not a life or death situation, yet the music was still intense.


[i]"I haven't actually finished Pokemon Black, but from what I've played, it doesn't sound like an overly-dramatized kind of game where every track needs a lot of sick drum beats and dramatic oomph."[/i]

A valid case. However what I am suggesting is that only the moments that need it are given an extra oomph, so that each track perfectly fits each scene within the game.


The first song is well done. Not the best, but it is well done, and good enough.

The second song is dry, and somewhat annoying. Even if it fits, it doesn't.

The third song seems to fit perfectly with a gas-station/mowtown themed place. If it is used for such a place in the game.


Please, continue to prove me wrong, no sarcasm intended. You have very good points of view.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1310431302' post='5346672']
*coughnostalgiafagcough*
[/quote]
OT: What Dark said.

The music for Gen 5 is different for a reason. I, for one, along with many, was completely satisfied with the soundtrack.

[.Rai]

In my opinion, every generation had its lacklustre tracks but equally every generation had their amazing tracks. Gen V wasn't worse than the others in any way. As said, the feel is different in Gen V to, say, Gen III.

[Dark]

[i]Well. As long as you like them, they must be good, eh? How's that for some cold, hard facts. If I had known you liked the music, I never would have commented negatively on any of it. [/sarcasm][/i]

Unless you think we're retarded, don't use sarcasm tags. More importantly, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Out of this entire forum, I'm one of the most avid video game music enthusiasts, and while that doesn't make my opinion right, I do feel like my opinion has a decent amount of weight to it. I haven't seen anyone not like the fifth generation soundtrack, and while majority doesn't really win, it kind of shows in your arguments that your side of the debate is lacking in decent support.

[i]This is true, and this may account for the intense music in these games. However, I also commented on Lance/Red's theme in Generation 2. This was not a life or death situation, yet the music was still intense.[/i]

It's... Champion music. Champion music, regardless of whether it's in a dire situation or not, is supposed to be dramatic. And have you heard the Ghestis (sp?) Theme? If it doesn't scream dramatic, I'm not really sure what does. The fact that Pokemon finally included a Champion theme with dramatic vocals just shows that they stepped up their soundtrack to suit the game. Maybe the legendary themes weren't "up to par" (I disgaree with that entirely, though), but you can't say the entire soundtrack took a soft turn. Just because it was partially heavily piano based doesn't mean it automatically was disappointing.

[i]A valid case. However what I am suggesting is that only the moments that need it are given an extra oomph, so that each track perfectly fits each scene within the game.[/i]

Okay, I understand your point. The RSE legendary theme was dramatic and really well done and really nostalgic. That's fine, but are you seriously telling me that the BW legendary theme had no sense of dramatic nature whatsoever?

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR1KJYEvnGw]Let's have a look.[/url]

The first eighteen seconds, or the introduction, do a very good job of introducing the legendary and it already adds dramatic nature. It's a perfect hook to anybody listening to the soundtrack.

Between 0:53 and 1:17, there is a huge dramatic build up, and you can't deny that it just keeps you on the edge of your seat to see what else the rest of the song holds. The release of the dramatic build up wasn't executed perfectly, but the part from 1:44 to 2:03 was perfectly composed in the sense that it released all the tension from the track, and yes, it even added those sick drum beats that you find so nostalgic. Is it a legendary theme? Yes. Does it deserve to be one? Absolutely.

[i]The second song is dry, and somewhat annoying. Even if it fits, it doesn't.[/i]

How is it dry in any sense? The combination of instruments isn't really the most dramatic in the world, but it's a goddamn bridge where you pick up feathers. The piano bridge used is perfectly composed because it's followed by a copy in flute (?), it adds depth and emotion to the song, and you can't help but smile when you hear it. Instruments like that have that effect, period. And how the hell can it "fit" or "not fit"? What is a bridge-y theme?

[i]Gen V wasn't worse than the others in any way. As said, the feel is different in Gen V to, say, Gen III.[/i]

Personally, I'd say the music, over time, has gotten better. The first time in a Pokemon game I've heard decent use of the piano was Eterna Forest in Gen IV, and looking at the entire Gen V soundtrack, I immediately fall in love with anything and everything piano. It's an instrument that just draws you in. Maybe I'm anti-nostalgic and maybe I don't like 8-bit beeps and boops, but the [i]style[/i] of music was much better in Gen V.

[Legokun]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJwd9zrjiA&feature=related]This, my good sir.[/url]
Your argument is invalid.

[Lonk]

[quote name='ZombiePigman' timestamp='1310520210' post='5349972']
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJwd9zrjiA&feature=related]This, my good sir.[/url]
Your argument is invalid.
[/quote]

That particular VGM is amazing.

Just proof that Gen V has the most amazing music out of the 5 generations.

[Brendano Harns]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1310513647' post='5349728']
[i]Well. As long as you like them, they must be good, eh? How's that for some cold, hard facts. If I had known you liked the music, I never would have commented negatively on any of it. [/sarcasm][/i]

Unless you think we're retarded, don't use sarcasm tags. More importantly, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Out of this entire forum, I'm one of the most avid video game music enthusiasts, and while that doesn't make my opinion right, I do feel like my opinion has a decent amount of weight to it. I haven't seen anyone not like the fifth generation soundtrack, and while majority doesn't really win, it kind of shows in your arguments that your side of the debate is lacking in decent support.
[/quote]

Just trying to lighten the mood, calm yourself.

Most everyone's opinion carries weight with it, so we're evenly matched as far as that, but I know plenty in real life who agree with me, if you'd like to pull the support card, and I've never heard of anyone who like Generation 5 music this much.



[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1310513647' post='5349728']
[i]This is true, and this may account for the intense music in these games. However, I also commented on Lance/Red's theme in Generation 2. This was not a life or death situation, yet the music was still intense.[/i]

It's... Champion music. Champion music, regardless of whether it's in a dire situation or not, is supposed to be dramatic. And have you heard the Ghestis (sp?) Theme? If it doesn't scream dramatic, I'm not really sure what does. The fact that Pokemon finally included a Champion theme with dramatic vocals just shows that they stepped up their soundtrack to suit the game. Maybe the legendary themes weren't "up to par" (I disgaree with that entirely, though), but you can't say the entire soundtrack took a soft turn. Just because it was partially heavily piano based doesn't mean it automatically was disappointing.
[/quote]

I'm saying that generally it's taking a soft turn, not every single track.


[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1310513647' post='5349728']

[i]A valid case. However what I am suggesting is that only the moments that need it are given an extra oomph, so that each track perfectly fits each scene within the game.[/i]

Okay, I understand your point. The RSE legendary theme was dramatic and really well done and really nostalgic. That's fine, but are you seriously telling me that the BW legendary theme had no sense of dramatic nature whatsoever?

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR1KJYEvnGw]Let's have a look.[/url]

The first eighteen seconds, or the introduction, do a very good job of introducing the legendary and it already adds dramatic nature. It's a perfect hook to anybody listening to the soundtrack.

Between 0:53 and 1:17, there is a huge dramatic build up, and you can't deny that it just keeps you on the edge of your seat to see what else the rest of the song holds. The release of the dramatic build up wasn't executed perfectly, but the part from 1:44 to 2:03 was perfectly composed in the sense that it released all the tension from the track, and yes, it even added those sick drum beats that you find so nostalgic. Is it a legendary theme? Yes. Does it deserve to be one? Absolutely.
[/quote]

The first eighteen seconds are a bit unoriginal, but I'm not going to argue that it shouldn't, because it's not mainly what bothers me about the song.

The point I'm trying to make here is that at parts similar to :28, the music drags along in an overly-happy tune, sounding more like a friendly battle than a battle against a one-of-a-kind, hard-to-find, extremely powerful Pokemon. It makes the song feel less intense.



[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1310513647' post='5349728']
[i]The second song is dry, and somewhat annoying. Even if it fits, it doesn't.[/i]

How is it dry in any sense? The combination of instruments isn't really the most dramatic in the world, but it's a goddamn bridge where you pick up feathers. The piano bridge used is perfectly composed because it's followed by a copy in flute (?), it adds depth and emotion to the song, and you can't help but smile when you hear it. Instruments like that have that effect, period. And how the hell can it "fit" or "not fit"? What is a bridge-y theme?
[/quote]

It's almost as if a happy slow song were played fast. I just can't stand it. Two different types of happy, contentment and excitement, were combined, and the mix just doesn't sound right.

[Blake]

The legendary theme is to prove a good heart and focus, and the ability to befriend the ancient creature. Why would it not be upbeat?

[.Corgi]

I still like the 1st and 3rd gen music. Nostalgia.

[Tentacruel]

Pokemon is an E-rated family-ish game. Of course it's going to sound happy.

[Brendano Harns]

[quote name='Legokun' timestamp='1310520210' post='5349972']
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJwd9zrjiA&feature=related]This, my good sir.[/url]
Your argument is invalid.
[/quote]

Like I said, there are some exceptions.

[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1310521498' post='5350039']
The legendary theme is to prove a good heart and focus, and the ability to befriend the ancient creature. Why would it not be upbeat?
[/quote]

Besides ghost in Pokemon Tower, I cannot think of a time at which a Pokemon could not be befriended. This is no special scenario, in that matter.

[quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1310625978' post='5353682']
Pokemon is an E-rated family-ish game. Of course it's going to sound happy.
[/quote]

It may have always been that way, an E-Rated family-friendly game, but the music has not.

[Blake]

This is a special scenario. The point of the battle was to prove you could befriend him.

The same for Cobalion, Virizion, and Terrakion. The point of those battles was to prove not all humans were monsters and/or they could fix things.

So, either play the games, or don't make bad "points".

[Brendano Harns]

[quote name='ADHD-Guitar' timestamp='1310431302' post='5346672']
*coughnostalgiafagcough*
[/quote]

I am, thank you for noticing.

[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1310841680' post='5360812']
This is a special scenario. The point of the battle was to prove you could befriend him.

The same for Cobalion, Virizion, and Terrakion. The point of those battles was to prove not all humans were monsters and/or they could fix things.

[s]So, either play the games, or don't make bad "points".[/s]
[/quote]

Disregarding the last sentence, as it is not a part of the argument.

I see your point and agree with what you're saying, but even a friendly battle is still intense. The song is, then, intense enough for the situation, but it still bothers me. It works both intense and friendly emotion into the song, but not very well. In that respect, the whole song is a series of bridges, which do not transition into one another very well.

It reminds me of another track, actually, which accomplishes the same emotions, but with good transition between the two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0op0MRFaGOs

I apologize to keep pulling from 3rd gen, but it is filled with great examples.

[Blake]

No, in YOUR opinion, the 3rd is a great example. As Dark said, Gen 5 was the most for him, and Gen 2/HGSS was best for me.

The song is fine, and conveys the emotion perfectly. A fight to earn the heart of a legendary beast that has existed for pretty much all of time.

[六兆年と一夜物語]

Well whatever. I LOVE the Generation V music. If you prefer Gen. 3, then it's your choice.

[Jack of All Spades]

[quote name='Legokun' timestamp='1310520210' post='5349972']
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJwd9zrjiA&feature=related]This, my good sir.[/url]
Your argument is invalid.
[/quote]
Around 0:58 it sounds like R/S ELITE FOUR

My opinion is that this generation is too fruity and sweet, with robotic zips all around. It wasn't as dire-sounding as Gen. III (my personal favorite)

[Legokun]

[quote name='+Whambulance' timestamp='1310912749' post='5362839']
Around 0:58 it sounds like R/S ELITE FOUR
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but I cannot for the life of me find a trace of R/S/E. And I can find the difference between [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_UrNvRhpY]this[/url] and [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8gzPalCyVc&feature=related]this[/url]. Take off the Nostalgia Goggles, people. Sure, Gen 3 was good, even my personal favorite, but that doesn't mean I bash everything else that attempts to compete with it. Just enjoy the bloody music or stfu.

[Mehmani]

It's funny how that when someone mentioned that you cover N's Final Battle and Ghetsis' Final Battle, you only covered N's - the significantly less dramatic one. I actually consider Gen 3 to have the weakest music of all five generations, and I'm very much a nostalgiafag. Gen V, like it or not, has some of the best music in the series.

I must also point out that you were (probably deliberately) using a not very dramatic battle theme from Gen V and the most dramatic battle theme of Gen III to illustrate your point. That's total selection bias, and completely twists the point in your favour unfairly. Secondly, you strike me as the kind of metalhead-type person who only enjoys POWAHFUL songs. So you're biased.

Now, here is the wonderfully dramatic song that Fuzzie ignored.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6qe7Q3nafg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6qe7Q3nafg[/url]

Now, here is the hypnotically beautiful N's Farewell, evidence of the brilliant composition standards in Gen V. Would you get this is Gens I, II or III? No.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzKRuwKyJmY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzKRuwKyJmY[/url]

Would you get a beautifully philosophical storyline in Gens I, II or III? No. Would you get a tragic, moving journey that ends in an emotional climax? No. Would you have fantastically written dialogue that makes the player question their own motives? No.

Stop living in the past. Gen II is still my favourite generation, but you should not be blinded by nostalgia.