POLL: Should Treeborn Frog be Banned next list?

[Definitely Not XxHEXSORxX]

i didnt even see the post about the envoys.

 

THEY WERE BANNED BECAUSE THEY WERE EXTREMELY OVERPOWERED.

 

Treeborn Frog is only INFINITE +1s. Raiza is like a +3' date=' but you people dont seem to have a problem with that.

 

 

 

MACRO COSMOS AND DIMENSIONAL FISSURE AND BANISHER OF THE RADIANCE ALSO STOP TREEBORN

[/quote']

 

 

*fixed

 

not necessarily

 

 

have any of you even explained why you think Frog should be banned?

 

Well, if we're counting out the whole D.D. Crow thing, which you did for CED, then yes....

Also, I believe the infinite +1s would be a pretty good reason...

 

what?

 

explain why it should be banned.

 

 

Infinite +1s isn't a good enough reason to be banned? It was for Sinister Serpent...

[Bfmvrocks]

It's not Infinite +1's if all you do is just Special Summon Treeborn Frog, that's -Infinite, since they could destroy and attack directly, while you have no traps to protect you.

[Definitely Not XxHEXSORxX]

It's not Infinite +1's if all you do is just Special Summon Treeborn Frog' date=' that's -Infinite, since they could destroy and attack directly, while you have no traps to protect you.

[/quote']

 

 

Wait what? How is 1 monster dying infinite -1s? Do you even know what the pluses and minuses mean?

[Bfmvrocks]

Agh, you don't understand. If you have no S/T's for protection over Treeborn, how would you protect your Life Points? All they have to do is attack Treeborn then directly, causing you to lose your monster AND your Life Points in cost for protection from one attack.

[RedSceptile]

A good player doesn't keep on bringing back Treeborn.

 

Bring back Treeborn Frog when you can't use it to immediately benefit you makes absolutely no sense.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Agh' date=' you don't understand. If you have no S/T's for protection over Treeborn, how would you protect your Life Points? All they have to do is attack Treeborn then directly, causing you to lose your monster AND your Life Points in cost for protection from one attack.

[/quote']

 

You assume two incorrect things:

 

1: Your opponent would have more then one monster on the field.

2: The duelist in question hasn't already moved up from Treeborn Frog.

 

Your point would be 100% correct, if not for the soul existence of Lv 5-8 monsters.

[Definitely Not XxHEXSORxX]

Agh' date=' you don't understand. If you have no S/T's for protection over Treeborn, how would you protect your Life Points? All they have to do is attack Treeborn then directly, causing you to lose your monster AND your Life Points in cost for protection from one attack.

[/quote']

 

And I guess you couldn't summon another monster to prevent those direct attacks huh? Preferably a tribute since you have infinite tribute bait...

[Bfmvrocks]

You have no prevention from cards activating to destroy the monsters you summon, do you? You would have to have no S/T's to Summon Frog. Saying "they don't have to summon it" is making your own statement of "INFINITE +1'S!" stupid.

[Definitely Not XxHEXSORxX]

You have no prevention from cards activating to destroy the monsters you summon' date=' do you? You would have to have no S/T's to Summon Frog. Saying "they don't have to summon it" is making your own statement of "INFINITE +1'S!" stupid.

[/quote']

 

 

Didn't we already go over this? Traps and Quickplays are meant to be activated during your opponent's turn... Try that one on for size...

[Shaco]

There is a lot of circular points going around.

 

I haven't seen a new point made by either side in a while.

 

Basically all points have been countered... then brought back up again a few posts later.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

There is a lot of circular points going around.

 

I haven't seen a new point made by either side in a while.

 

Basically all points have been countered... then brought back up again a few posts later.

 

But I think the main conclusion our group is trying to get to is that Treeborn Frog, is very unhealthy for the metagame.

[Jib]

Actually, I'm still looking for a valid reason why it SHOULDN'T be banned except "it can be countered by X, Y and Z"

[Bfmvrocks]

Treeborn Frog shouldn't be banned.

That's it.

Why should it be banned anyways?

All you have said is that it's a free Special Summon.

Wow, that's all.

Sangan should be banned then because you get a free monster to your hand.

Mother Grizzly, Mystic Tomato, etc. should then be banned because you get a monster for it getting destroyed by battle.

So saying Treeborn Frog should be banned is saying that all cards that give you new cards, or an advantage should be banned.

[Shaco]

There is a lot of circular points going around.

 

I haven't seen a new point made by either side in a while.

 

Basically all points have been countered... then brought back up again a few posts later.

 

But I think the main conclusion our group is trying to get to is that Treeborn Frog' date=' is very unhealthy for the metagame.

[/quote']

 

And our group is saying it's just fine where it is.

 

Would it be fair to agree to disagree?

[HORUS]

Bfmv has a point with that.

[Bfmvrocks]

Thank you, finally the dispute may be over.

[RedSceptile]

Thing is none of those cards have the innate ability to be continous engines. Once Sangan gets you your monster it's just dead weight in your graveyard.

 

Treeborn does. Treeborn keeps on doing what no one card should be able to, provide advantage that never goes away unless specifically dealth with.

 

Such a card doesn't promote skilled play.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Treeborn Frog shouldn't be banned.

That's it.

Why should it be banned anyways?

All you have said is that it's a free Special Summon.

Wow' date=' that's all.[/quote']

 

It's quite a big thing actually, especially with the monarchs. Heck, let's not even use the monarchs, forget them for a second.

 

Sacrafice for Frostosaurus? Good. Next turn, Sacrafice for another Frostosaurus. Okay? You basically just played a bunch of high level 2600 attack monsters as though they were level 4s, all because of one little monsters.

 

Sangan should be banned then because you get a free monster to your hand.

 

Fun Fact: With all the new cards added in Phantom Darkness, there's a good chance it could be, but we'll save that for another topic.

 

Mother Grizzly, Mystic Tomato, etc. should then be banned because you get a monster for it getting destroyed by battle.

So saying Treeborn Frog should be banned is saying that all cards that give you new cards, or an advantage should be banned.

 

Except those have very specific ways of activating their effect. They have to be destroyed by battle. Sangan merely has to be sent to the grave. Tributed, Torrential, Sakurtesu, he doesn't mind. Mother Grizzly and all the other recruiters have very specific ways of activating their effects.

[Bfmvrocks]

Same with Treeborn, you have to have no S/T's for his effect to Special Summon him, how does that change anything?

[Jib]

Treeborn Frog shouldn't be banned.

That's it.

Why should it be banned anyways?

All you have said is that it's a free Special Summon.

Wow' date=' that's all.

Sangan should be banned then because you get a free monster to your hand.

Mother Grizzly, Mystic Tomato, etc. should then be banned because you get a monster for it getting destroyed by battle.

[b']So saying Treeborn Frog should be banned is saying that all cards that give you new cards, or an advantage should be banned.[/b]

 

But all those cards you named give advantage ONE time. Now in a good Monarch/LaDD deck, how many times do you expect to use Frog?

[Definitely Not XxHEXSORxX]

Same with Treeborn' date=' you have to have no S/T's for his effect to Special Summon him, how does that change anything?

[/quote']

 

How? Because you have the ability to control whether or not you have S/Ts down. I can't really control if my Mother Grizzly is destroyed by a Smashing Ground...

[RedSceptile]

From Atem:

 

[22:48] ?: Frog is also perfect food for Hydros. Attack it with one, get another and attack directly for 1600 damage.

 

 

[22:48] ?: The problem with Hydro is a twosided one.

[22:48] ?: 1) Hydro is a dead card if you don't have more Hydros in the Deck.

[22:49] ?: If you draw a second Hydro, which CAN happen when you're running more than one, you just gave up your Draw Phase for that turn.

[22:49] ?: It sucks when this entire game relies on drawing cards so much.

[22:49] ?: Now, then, Hydro jumps from "bad" to "horrible" when you draw all three.

[22:50] ?: The fact that Hydro CAN be a dead draw makes it a walking liability.

[22:50] ?: Further, Hydro has only 1600 ATK. This is below the standards required to make a real dent, meaning that a card with such low power MUST HAVE an effect strong enough to compensate.

[22:51] ?: Banisher compensates by being a perfect tool against many, many other cards on the competitive level.

[22:52] ?: Hydro doesn't compensate; Hydro only works well against weak monsters, and this metagame does not let its weak monsters sit on the field long enough to be taken advantage of by Hydro.

[22:52] ?: 2) The other cards of the metagame ruin Hydro too.

[22:52] ?: No one good lets their Treeborn Frog sit on the field - there's just NO REASON to do it.

[22:53]?: Therefore, Frog can't be taken advantage of by Hydro.

[22:53] ?: The only way to ensure that Hydro is not a dead draw is to get every copy you're using onto the field as quick as possible.

[22:54] ?: The only fast way to do so through Hydro's own effect involves killing Recruiters in battle, while those Recruiters also replace themselves because they were killed in battle.

[22:54] ?: Those recruiters are not competitive right now.

[22:55] ?: Therefore, because no one is running the one thing Hydro doesn't suck against, Hydro loses all reason to be used.

[22:55] ?: Further, we mustn't forget that the metagame runs several cards that make Hydro into a dead draw

[22:55] ?: Raiza and Phoenixwing being the key two.

[22:56] ?: There's nothing worse than knowing you're going to draw a dead card

[22:56] ?: and drawing a Hydro when you already have one in your hand, on the field, or in your Grave is horrible because any Hydro you draw from that point on will indeed be dead.

[23:38] ?: The metagame makes Hydro a dead card too often, and no one good leaves Frog on the field or summons it more than necessary.

[23:38] ?: That's the condensed version of all the stuff I said above.

[23:38] ?: Say all the stuff above AND

[23:38] ?: that sentence.

[23:38] ?: They won't have any Traps or anything down because they're hoping to use Frog's effect.

 

 

[23:39] Redsceptile: Alright lemme copy pasta

[23:39] ?: Except that they WILL have Traps down when those Traps are worth using. Knowing when to use Traps alongside Frog, which traps, et cetera, is KEY to Frog use.

[23:39] ?: If you cannot...

[23:39] ?: well, you're just not good at the game, and therefore should not be listened to in metagame discussion BECAUSE you don't understand something so simple.

[23:40]?: There are more things you can do to Frog that can screw with your opponent, but I won't mention them all. I only mentioned the first few that came to me first.

[23:40] ?: Those things are not stopped by anything on a competitive level not named D.D. Crow. Players should not have to use Crow to stop an infinite advantage engine that takes away what little skill remains in generating Tribute material.

[23:41] ?: Basically, the entire reason to prohibit Frog is one of how easy it is to use v. how much it gives you for proper use.

[23:41] ?: Proper use turns Monarchs into costless cards to summon, and anyone except the game's absolute WORSE can take advantage of this fact.

[23:42] ?: Proper use doesn't just do that to Monarchs; it does it for all monsters below Level 7.

[23:45] ?: Those monsters were given higher levels with the reasoning that they SHOULD be harder to summon; Treeborn takes the difficulty away on a level that should not be permitted unless it were made much easier to stop, much more costly, et cetera.

[23:45] ?: All other methods fulfill that harder degree of summoning, whether they be Brain Control, Soul Exchange, Recruiters, Tokens, whatever.

[23:47] ?: The analysis of a card's legality requires that ALL competitive methods be looked at, meaning that you need to do more than just propose "what first comes to mind." You also need to verify the competitive merit or lack-thereof that the proposed idea has.

 

[23:47] ?: So before you (the thread creator) go around and say "ZOMG, Treeborn Frog iz teh overpoweredz banzzzzz", realize that Treeborn has just as many weaknesses as it does advantages.

 

 

[23:48] ?: LOL, such a lie.

[23:48] ?: Treeborn's Advantages:

[23:48] ?: Level 6 and below monsters may be Normal Summoned without meaningful cost

[23:48] ?: Treeborn's Disadvantages:

[23:48] ?: None on a competitive level

[23:49] ?: Well, not exactly, but it does have some weaknesses.

[23:49] ?: Again, none on a competitive level.

[23:50]?: D.D. Crow has been forced to be run nearly everywhere to compensate; that impact alone is a benefit, as it compromises deckbuilds a great deal to run something for the purpose of working against a very low number of cards in a deck.

[23:51] ?: Simply put, to counter Treeborn, decks have to bend over backward. This is a very good thing for the Treeborn user and a very bad thing for the other player.

[23:52] ?: Crow itself can hit Treeborn, but just being forced to main Crow in response to one or two Limited cards manages to eliminate the drawback latent in this situation.

[23:53] ?: "But what about Macrocosmos?"

[23:53] ?: Macrocosmos autoloses to the rest of the format.

[23:54] ?: Or, at least, it autoloses often enough because of how badly it can draw, the end result being that the benefits are all STILL on Treeborn's side.

[The Slime Lord]

Is there are reason for you to continue re-post my previous comments?

[Shaco]

Who is this "Atem" fella, and why is he so damn Godly?

 

I say this because you've quoted him 5 times now.

[RedSceptile]

Is there are reason for you to continue re-post my previous comments?

 

Is there a reason not to?

 

Atem was busy so that's why it took long for me to post that.