Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 conclusion: you want to everybody agree with you... and you won't accept a NO for answer... so this thread will still going on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Age_User Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 conclusion: you want to everybody agree with you... and you won't accept a NO for answer... so this thread will still going on.. I won't accept: "It should be banned, but it's not bannable" as an appropriate answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 conclusion: you want to everybody agree with you... and you won't accept a NO for answer... so this thread will still going on.. I won't accept: "It should be banned' date=' but it's not bannable" as an appropriate answer.[/quote'] accept it... several ways to control it and it won't win duels by itself... so frog NOT banned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 conclusion: you want to everybody agree with you... and you won't accept a NO for answer... so this thread will still going on.. I won't accept: "It should be banned' date=' but it's not bannable" as an appropriate answer.[/quote'] accept it... several ways to control it and it won't win duels by itself... so frog NOT banned... Pot of Greed can be negated by Solemn Judgment and doesn't win duels by itself. Let's unban it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 conclusion: you want to everybody agree with you... and you won't accept a NO for answer... so this thread will still going on.. I won't accept: "It should be banned' date=' but it's not bannable" as an appropriate answer.[/quote'] accept it... several ways to control it and it won't win duels by itself... so frog NOT banned... Please. Countering cards doesn't make it any less bannable. Macro Cosmos counters CED because no monsters are in the graveyard to allow it to be special summoned. White Hole counters Dark Hole. Anti-Raigeki counters Raigeki. Since we have all these counters, these cards should be at 3. So not being able to win duels by itself doesn't make it bannable? Delinquent Duo doesn't win the duel by itself does it? The Forceful Sentry doesn't win duels by itself does it? I don't understand your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 you will never undertand my arguments until you pick a real deck and duel against a traditional format deck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Age_User Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 you will never undertand my arguments until you pick a real deck and duel against a traditional format deck... Lol, traditional. Okay so... who gives a damn what people who play traditional think about banlists? It never effects them anyway, since all the good stuff is still at 1 to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 play against one of those deck then tell me what you think... lol, people who don't know why some banned cards stays in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Age_User Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 play against one of those deck then tell me what you think... lol' date=' people who don't know why some banned cards stays in there...[/quote'] What's your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 play against one of those deck then tell me what you think... lol' date=' people who don't know why some banned cards stays in there...[/quote'] Oh quite contraire. I understand why cards stay banned. But your reason for why a card shouldn't be banned is flawed. If a card is easily countered, that doesn't make it any less bannable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b7hamma Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Orochi, every point you bring up has already been dismantled at least 3 times in the topic. Bring something new to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 facts can't be new... just stop whinning... my argument is: play against a traditional deck... then you will remember me and see what's my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I've played Traditional vs. Advance. I've played Traditional vs. Traditional When you play Traditional you notice a striking similarity between Sinister Serpent, and Treeborn Frog; they're both infinite +1 engines. I mean that's not completely broken right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b7hamma Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Wtf has Trad anything to do in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Age_User Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 facts can't be new... just stop whinning... my argument is: play against a traditional deck... then you will remember me and see what's my point... I have a pretty good idea as to why cards are banned. They provide an insurmountable advantage, which can typically only be countered by specifically designing a deck to play against that one card. Since very few people ever even gave D.D. Crow a second glance a few formats ago, and now it's mained in 3s JUST for Treeborn Frog, I'd consider that a pretty broken card. Edit: The Frog being broken, not the Crow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 see? slowly you're starting to get it... now tell me, why it's broken? then i'll tell you why i asked that... p.s.: redsceptile, siniester serpent is WAY more broken that frog, they're not equals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 see? slowly you're starting to get it... now tell me' date=' why it's broken? then i'll tell you why i asked that... p.s.: redsceptile, siniester serpent is WAY more broken that frog, they're not equals...[/quote'] Serpent is more broken because it comes back to your hand (which is arguable nonetheless) Frog comes back to the field. They become do so without limit. Only way you can say Serpent is more broken is due to the fact that it makes discards have no cost. But you can easily argue that Treeborn Frog makes level 5-6 monsters have no summoning costs. Discussions, discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Age_User Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 now tell me, why it's broken? then i'll tell you why i asked that... Again? Fine... From Atem: [22:48] ?: Frog is also perfect food for Hydros. Attack it with one' date=' get another and attack directly for 1600 damage.[/b'] [22:48] ?: The problem with Hydro is a twosided one.[22:48] ?: 1) Hydro is a dead card if you don't have more Hydros in the Deck.[22:49] ?: If you draw a second Hydro, which CAN happen when you're running more than one, you just gave up your Draw Phase for that turn.[22:49] ?: It sucks when this entire game relies on drawing cards so much.[22:49] ?: Now, then, Hydro jumps from "bad" to "horrible" when you draw all three.[22:50] ?: The fact that Hydro CAN be a dead draw makes it a walking liability.[22:50] ?: Further, Hydro has only 1600 ATK. This is below the standards required to make a real dent, meaning that a card with such low power MUST HAVE an effect strong enough to compensate.[22:51] ?: Banisher compensates by being a perfect tool against many, many other cards on the competitive level.[22:52] ?: Hydro doesn't compensate; Hydro only works well against weak monsters, and this metagame does not let its weak monsters sit on the field long enough to be taken advantage of by Hydro.[22:52] ?: 2) The other cards of the metagame ruin Hydro too.[22:52] ?: No one good lets their Treeborn Frog sit on the field - there's just NO REASON to do it.[22:53]?: Therefore, Frog can't be taken advantage of by Hydro.[22:53] ?: The only way to ensure that Hydro is not a dead draw is to get every copy you're using onto the field as quick as possible.[22:54] ?: The only fast way to do so through Hydro's own effect involves killing Recruiters in battle, while those Recruiters also replace themselves because they were killed in battle.[22:54] ?: Those recruiters are not competitive right now.[22:55] ?: Therefore, because no one is running the one thing Hydro doesn't suck against, Hydro loses all reason to be used.[22:55] ?: Further, we mustn't forget that the metagame runs several cards that make Hydro into a dead draw[22:55] ?: Raiza and Phoenixwing being the key two.[22:56] ?: There's nothing worse than knowing you're going to draw a dead card[22:56] ?: and drawing a Hydro when you already have one in your hand, on the field, or in your Grave is horrible because any Hydro you draw from that point on will indeed be dead.[23:38] ?: The metagame makes Hydro a dead card too often, and no one good leaves Frog on the field or summons it more than necessary.[23:38] ?: That's the condensed version of all the stuff I said above.[23:38] ?: Say all the stuff above AND[23:38] ?: that sentence.[23:38] ?: They won't have any Traps or anything down because they're hoping to use Frog's effect. [23:39] Redsceptile: Alright lemme copy pasta[23:39] ?: Except that they WILL have Traps down when those Traps are worth using. Knowing when to use Traps alongside Frog, which traps, et cetera, is KEY to Frog use.[23:39] ?: If you cannot...[23:39] ?: well, you're just not good at the game, and therefore should not be listened to in metagame discussion BECAUSE you don't understand something so simple.[23:40]?: There are more things you can do to Frog that can screw with your opponent, but I won't mention them all. I only mentioned the first few that came to me first.[23:40] ?: Those things are not stopped by anything on a competitive level not named D.D. Crow. Players should not have to use Crow to stop an infinite advantage engine that takes away what little skill remains in generating Tribute material.[23:41] ?: Basically, the entire reason to prohibit Frog is one of how easy it is to use v. how much it gives you for proper use.[23:41] ?: Proper use turns Monarchs into costless cards to summon, and anyone except the game's absolute WORSE can take advantage of this fact.[23:42] ?: Proper use doesn't just do that to Monarchs; it does it for all monsters below Level 7.[23:45] ?: Those monsters were given higher levels with the reasoning that they SHOULD be harder to summon; Treeborn takes the difficulty away on a level that should not be permitted unless it were made much easier to stop, much more costly, et cetera.[23:45] ?: All other methods fulfill that harder degree of summoning, whether they be Brain Control, Soul Exchange, Recruiters, Tokens, whatever.[23:47] ?: The analysis of a card's legality requires that ALL competitive methods be looked at, meaning that you need to do more than just propose "what first comes to mind." You also need to verify the competitive merit or lack-thereof that the proposed idea has. [23:47] ?: So before you (the thread creator) go around and say "ZOMG, Treeborn Frog iz teh overpoweredz banzzzzz", realize that Treeborn has just as many weaknesses as it does advantages. [23:48] ?: LOL, such a lie.[23:48] ?: Treeborn's Advantages:[23:48] ?: Level 6 and below monsters may be Normal Summoned without meaningful cost[23:48] ?: Treeborn's Disadvantages:[23:48] ?: None on a competitive level[23:49] ?: Well, not exactly, but it does have some weaknesses.[23:49] ?: Again, none on a competitive level.[23:50]?: D.D. Crow has been forced to be run nearly everywhere to compensate; that impact alone is a benefit, as it compromises deckbuilds a great deal to run something for the purpose of working against a very low number of cards in a deck.[23:51] ?: Simply put, to counter Treeborn, decks have to bend over backward. This is a very good thing for the Treeborn user and a very bad thing for the other player.[23:52] ?: Crow itself can hit Treeborn, but just being forced to main Crow in response to one or two Limited cards manages to eliminate the drawback latent in this situation.[23:53] ?: "But what about Macrocosmos?"[23:53] ?: Macrocosmos autoloses to the rest of the format.[23:54] ?: Or, at least, it autoloses often enough because of how badly it can draw, the end result being that the benefits are all STILL on Treeborn's side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 see? slowly you're starting to get it... now tell me' date=' why it's broken? then i'll tell you why i asked that... p.s.: redsceptile, siniester serpent is WAY more broken that frog, they're not equals...[/quote'] Serpent is more broken because it comes back to your hand (which is arguable nonetheless) Frog comes back to the field. They become do so without limit. Only way you can say Serpent is more broken is due to the fact that it makes discards have no cost. But you can easily argue that Treeborn Frog makes level 5-6 monsters have no summoning costs. Discussions, discussions. exactly!! discarding for a cost... if you discard and the card is negated, you still will have it on your hand to discard again... but with frog you tribute it, and if the summoned monster is negated and destroyed you will have frog next turn, but now you have an open field to receive a direct attack... see the difference?? EDIT: i read all you posted under_age... but i don't see why frog is broken, i saw several post marking the cons of the frog... so your answer is countering yourself?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSceptile Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 see? slowly you're starting to get it... now tell me' date=' why it's broken? then i'll tell you why i asked that... p.s.: redsceptile, siniester serpent is WAY more broken that frog, they're not equals...[/quote'] Serpent is more broken because it comes back to your hand (which is arguable nonetheless) Frog comes back to the field. They become do so without limit. Only way you can say Serpent is more broken is due to the fact that it makes discards have no cost. But you can easily argue that Treeborn Frog makes level 5-6 monsters have no summoning costs. Discussions, discussions. exactly!! discarding for a cost... if you discard and the card is negated, you still will have it on your hand to discard again... but with frog you tribute it, and if the summoned monster is negated and destroyed you will have frog next turn, but now you have an open field to receive a direct attack... se the difference?? Yay you negated my summon! Frog comes back and I can tribute again. A free swing at lifepoints is negligble at best. Lifepoints don't matter until they hit 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orochi Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 it all depends on the situation... for example your summon is negated, you're open field with 2 cards on your hand... my turn and i summon don zaloog... say goodbye to 1400 LP and one card on your hand... your frog comes but you can't summon because the discarded card was your tribute monster... situational, but factible... dropping LP to 0 is not the only way to win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under_Age_User Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 it all depends on the situation... for example your summon is negated' date=' you're open field with 2 cards on your hand... my turn and i summon don zaloog... say goodbye to 1400 LP and one card on your hand... your frog comes but you can't summon because the discarded card was your tribute monster... situational, but factible...[/quote'] Let's NOT base major decisions on situational combos please. We could make the same argument with any card here. "I summon BLS""I chain with Book of Moon, then activate NoC." dropping LP to 0 is not the only way to win... A vast majority of duels are won this way. I don't think I've ever seen a SJC game go to Exodia or Final Countdown or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b7hamma Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 exactly!! discarding for a cost... if you discard and the card is negated' date=' you still will have it on your hand to discard again... [b']but with frog you tribute it, and if the summoned monster is negated and destroyed you will have frog next turn, but now you have an open field to receive a direct attack... [/b]see the difference?? LOL, come on, admit you haven't read the topic yet. Frog NEVER stopped you from setting a card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaco Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I don't think arguing for either side is necessary at this point. Everything that can be said about this card, for either argument, has been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 dropping LP to 0 is not the only way to win... That depends on who you're playing against. Against decent players, it pretty much is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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