YCMthropology

[Sploda]

@Black
At the same time I'm pretty sure the people making those posts and the people responding don't consider it spam.

Who says your judgement is above theirs?

Wouldn't it just be easier if people allowed the Club leaders to decide what spam is?

[Blake]

Creator, those are things that are Spam. It's common sense. Granted, you can be lenient on the second two examples.

Heck, a good riule (Whether a section rule or not) is to post at least one sentence. At least 5 words. It's not much, but it is something.

[Sploda]

@Black
A sentence can consist of 3 words to 181 words. Just keeping the rule that it has to be on topic is fine.

Another point I want to bring up: Why can't Clubs have more than one topic going at the same time? Usually you will get called out for talking about another topic with 2-3 other people.

[Fusion X. Denver]

[quote name='TheCreator94' timestamp='1289014557' post='4764961']
Wouldn't it just be easier if people allowed the Club leaders to decide what spam is?
[/quote]

That makes much more sense. And if a mod thinks their definition of spam is too lenient, then they can monitor the club to see if it's a spamhole.
[quote name='Fading Black' timestamp='1289014651' post='4764966']
Heck, a good rule (Whether a section rule or not) is to post at least one sentence. At least 5 words. It's not much, but it is something.
[/quote]

That would be helpful.

I say implement these :/

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

[quote name='TheCreator94' timestamp='1289014788' post='4764972']
@Black
A sentence can consist of 3 words to 181 words. Just keeping the rule that it has to be on topic is fine.

Another point I want to bring up: Why can't Clubs have more than one topic going at the same time? Usually you will get called out for talking about another topic with 2-3 other people.
[/quote]

No, that is not what Black is getting at...by Spam, he means things like:

-"Hi, what's going on?" which is technically spam because you should just go back and read it. The only clubs where this shouldn't be spam are the ones that tend to gain 5 pages of posts in 2 hours.
-Clubs that go completely off topic, like how for a good bit we never did discuss Code Geass in Code Geass club. Things that we have been trying to fix and sometimes do but they inevitably fall back to spam.
-Clubs that really have no topic.
-Extremely small posts.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Fading Black' timestamp='1289012873' post='4764879']
While I do get most of my posts from C&O.... I'd rather have Post Count shut off than have it reset. It is, as Nevert put it elsewhere, a medium for people to talk. Clubs are fine as is. You are having fun on the internet, God forbid. It's no different than RPs, or Cards. Heck, some CARD THREADS become discussions.
[/quote]
I'm all for fun, but we need rules. You can't have threads where you can talk about anything and when threads get to the point where that's basically what's happening something needs to be done..

[quote name='Ice' timestamp='1289013194' post='4764892']
Honestly, I see no apparent reasoning behind this at all. Can somebody please explain to me why people want to do this in the first place?
[/quote]
This section has the bulk of the threads being spam. I don't have the time to really check them since I have enough going on in my life (mostly school, and as of late I've finally started going out and spending time with my friends) but from what I've been told and what I've seen threads can't stay on topic.

[quote name='Wiseman Fusion' timestamp='1289013448' post='4764909']
What's wrong with clubs getting off-topic? And why are these occasions considered spam?
I believe, so long as a discussion is ongoing with valid contributions being made, then how is it spam even if it's not on the main topic of the club?
I understand posts only containing stuff like "*bifurcates Fusion* TAKE THAT*" being spam as they contribute nothing, but otherwise, I believe those discussions to be non-spam and valid. People get off-topic all the time, and clubs form communities, so it's not like "spam" would bother anyone in the community since they're used to it. And if they are, then they simply stop posting.
This is obviously different than public threads, where spam hampers discussion and bothers other members. But I don't see the same thing applying to clubs.
[/quote]
Because now you have a thread that says "talk about anything." Those kind of threads are clearly against the rules, so why should threads that start off meaning well enough but end up like that stay open.

[quote name='Ice' timestamp='1289013842' post='4764929']
Spam issue? Turn postcount off, like in games.
Moderation issue? Stricter rules.

Where in the name of hell is locking every club a viable solution?
[/quote]
The amount of problems in this section is huge. I honestly don't know where to begin. Plus it's not really right to let this kind of thing go on for months and then say "ok stop everything, if it keeps up your club gets locked and every one gets warned." Yea, long run it would work, but getting from what we have now to a section where major spam isn't an issue is going to be a bumpy ride to say the least. I just don't like the idea of letting things run wild only to come in and just say stop. I just don't see it ending well.

Turning posts off would be a good way to solve the problem, but this section can have real discussion and it should be rewarded. Plus turning off post counts is going to be hard to do since it takes months for YCMaker to do anything. Case in point, the pm glitch. We had a thread about it in the mod section from 2 months ago. Nothing got done till he ended up seeing it himself.

Honestly, I only brought it up as a half joke, but because people seem to like it, I am thinking that it might be a good way to fix the section since it would start off fine.

[quote name='Fading Black' timestamp='1289013886' post='4764932']
Look at Organization XIII. The last page or two was Bleach discussion. Before that, YMB, Kingdom Hearts, etc.
[/quote]
And that shouldn't be happening. If you pick a topic, Square Enix here, you should not be talking about Bleach. It has nothing to do with the topic of thread and, as I see it, spam.

[Blake]

And why not? People are impossible to keep on topic. Look in any section. There's a huge difference between Fighting and discussion of YCM and other things. Most clubs are NOT the Random Whatever.

If it's that bad, disable post count for C&O.

So, may I ask? Should we NOT talk about Bleach in the RP club when planning a Bleach RP?

[Sploda]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1289015679' post='4765002']
And that shouldn't be happening. If you pick a topic, Square Enix here, you should not be talking about Bleach. It has nothing to do with the topic of thread and, as I see it, spam.
[/quote]

Case and point, No one in the Organization thinks this is Spam but yet Flame here does.

@Flame
The Organization is really anything related to Square Enix which can include Games, Anime, Manga and the like.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='TheCreator94' timestamp='1289016006' post='4765012']
Case and point, No one in the Organization thinks this is Spam but yet Flame here does.

@Flame
The Organization is really anything related to Square Enix which can include Games, Anime, Manga and the like.
[/quote]
I say in the rules that you need to stick to your topic. Really you can't go around talking about Bleach in a VG thread on SE so why should you get a way with it here?

If those relate to SE (as in their games, Anime/other films they've made, and any manga based on their series) then yea that's fine. It sticks to the over branching idea of the thread, SE. But now your talking about Bleach and that just comes out of left field and shouldn't be happening.

[Sploda]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1289016447' post='4765023']
I say in the rules that you need to stick to your topic. Really you can't go around talking about Bleach in a VG thread on SE so why should you get a way with it here?

If those relate to SE (as in their games, Anime/other films they've made, and any manga based on their series) then yea that's fine. It sticks to the over branching idea of the thread, SE. But now your talking about Bleach and that just comes out of left field and shouldn't be happening.
[/quote]

Well Bleach was brought up by Roxas during a discussion about his Poll contest or whatnot so idk.

But would be talking about Bleach after it branching off from a discussion about a Bleach/SE crossover game/Anime be spam?

[Phantom Roxas]

Wouldn't just turning off post count be less controversial? Sure, it takes forever, but it will have a more positive reception with everyone. I know we shouldn't be babying the members just because they didn't get what they want, but still.

Yes, I was talking about the tournament, but I was talking about Sora, a Kingdom Hearts character.

[Amethyst Phoenix]

So Black told me to post here and that he'd accept me so my post is valid. I guess I'll just start with the less RAEG-ish parts of my first remarks on the issue:

This is the stupidest proposition I've ever heard.

There is no problem with clubs, you don't need it under extreme control or high organization. It's essentially a giant sea for all our nice little social collectives to drift around in.

It hurts nothing. Reigning it in serves no purpose whatsoever than boosting the ego of whoever suggests/enacts this and helping to feed their superiority complex.

One club's opinion that all the other clubs should be screwed over is hardly a valid reason for a reset of the entire section.



FD, what you fail to realize is that sometimes you make something with a specific purpose in mind and then it goes on to evolve into something new. If every time a club became interested in a new topic it had to splinter into a new club devoted to said topic, C&O would arguably be MORE cluttered. Why should we have to compartmentalize our social interaction (that's what C&O is: socialization using a shared interest as a magnet to draw people together) just because we want something new to discuss? It's annoying on the same level that spoilers on every single card in CC is: It's like having to remove plastic wrap from every page of a book. All the topics in any given club are part of the same book: why wrap them all up and constrict the life out of them?


In fact, the same thing happened to YCM as as whole: the original purpose of the site was Yugioh. However, it branched off into other things, such as the general social environment. Because we're constantly evolving, people that don't even care about Yugioh are still here in places such as general. This same reasoning for not compartmentalizing our social experience is why YCM has multiple sections, instead of there being entirely separate forums (as in websites) for things such as General and Video Games. In fact, you started off moderating one such evolution didn't you?: the Video Games section. Do you think your video games section is spam that defaces YCM as a whole?

I didn't think so.



As for post count, it's just a damn number. People worried about post count being fluffed are just as bad as the people going "lol +1 post count".

[Blake]

Ammy is accepted.

I think he pretty much said all I ever could.

[Sploda]

*Claps for Ammy*

I seriously couldn't have said it better myself.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='TheCreator94' timestamp='1289016626' post='4765028']
Well Bleach was brought up by Roxas during a discussion about his Poll contest or whatnot so idk.

But would be talking about Bleach after it branching off from a discussion about a Bleach/SE crossover game/Anime be spam?
[/quote]
IMO it's pushing it but it would be fine.

[quote name='Phantom Roxas' timestamp='1289016655' post='4765029']
Wouldn't just turning off post count be less controversial? Sure, it takes forever, but it will have a more positive reception with everyone. I know we shouldn't be babying the members just because they didn't get what they want, but still.

Yes, I was talking about the tournament, but I was talking about Sora, a Kingdom Hearts character.
[/quote]
I can see a lot of members getting mad over it (look at the last page), and I honestly think that would be taking the easy fix, and I really don't like that. As far as I know the only section that has them turned of is games, and that simply because the section is built on the idea of really simple posts. That isn't the case here. As I've said, we can have real discussion here (this thread is a great example) and getting posts out of it encourages it. Plus why would you make a thread here about, lets say pokemon, when you can just make one in video game and get the same thing done. And I'm hoping all the fall out that would come from that being done, should it be done, will fall on me. I could care less if people aren't happy about it (and up till this point most people are for the idea, so I know I have people that are for it), and if it ends up working out then I know it was for the best.
Also, we can't get YCMaker to turn off posts count in Intros, a section I remember most agreeing shouldn't give posts, so the odds of getting it here is even worse.

Yea, I thought there was more to it.

[Blake]

For Pokemon you need, at very least, two threads.

Anime/Manga
Video Games

Oh, let's cut it down further.

Anime Thread
Manga Thread (Technically, could be cut down into RBG, Y, GS, C, RS, E, DP, Pl, BW)
Manga that is a ripoff of the Anime, but in no way the same.

They ARE seperate.

Pokemon RBGY
Pokemong GSC
Pokemon RSE
Pokemon DPPl
Pokemon BW

Also, where would you discuss things like Pokemon Online and Shoddy?

[Sploda]

@Flame
Well if we are going to do this, then I suggest you see Fusion's post and implement both of those rules.

If I can't convince you not to go through with this, at the very least I can make sure the idea works.

[Phantom Roxas]

I think OOC has post count disable too.

The thing is, while we can talk about the topic in the club, even if it doesn't match with the clubs intended purpose, it's harder to get the people in the club to go to a completely different thread since they just wouldn't be interested, so it's easier for them to post when it's in the club already.

The Bleach discussion stemmed from our thoughts on the tournament's rules for next year, although I admit that the topic really would be best suited for the main tournament thread, since it's entire purpose is to allow discussion for the tournament. Again, it's a case of getting a discussion going on in a place that's more likely to reply.

[Clair]

Flame, if we followed your guidelines, every club would basically be a "general discussion of _____" thread. We already have those in other sections. xD

I know turning off post count may be a chore, but it seems widely favored here.

[Dark]

[quote name='Fading Black' timestamp='1289012667' post='4764871']
Club revamp is a terrible idea. You're killing what people worked for. they actually put thought into what they made. If you notice, clubs that DO NOT have much thought put into them don't get very far.
[/quote]

...what do you mean "what people worked for"? Your logic makes no sense. Lock the club, the club owner remakes it. Each club starts off at zero replies. The people who previously were in the club join the new thread. C&O continues as normal.

[quote name='Ice' timestamp='1289012738' post='4764872']
BECAUSE THAT'S A TOTALLY VIABLE REASON TO DESTROY C&O.

Honestly, just get rid of post count if it's such a big deal. God.
[/quote]

There is no post count loss. Locking a thread does not delete post count, deleting a thread does. And FD doesn't intend to delete threads.

[quote name='Wiseman Fusion' timestamp='1289012871' post='4764878']
I agree with Black sorta.
If you guys want things to be stricter around Clubs, just have a board announcement declaring new rules. And if clubs don't shape up, they're locked.
Seems less time-consuming and accomplishes the same goal, doesn't it?
[/quote]

Everyone is already into the routine of spamming and not following nonexistant rules in C&O. If you lock the threads and declare new rules, EVERYONE WILL BE FORCED to conform to the new rules, thus making it easier to moderate and less spammy in general.

Post count turned on or not, how does that make a difference. Games is a forum where spam is intended, although I'm pretty sure it is still against the rules to go off topic, not play a game correctly, or make a game revolving only on spam (literally a game where posts are "aegoubnaeg" and "osgeagwh").

If you want to break it down, do it this way: before the major lock, every person that owns a club must PM Flame Dragon with the club name and WHAT THE CLUB IS ABOUT. If you cannot produce an actual topic for the club (of course some deviation should be allowed, like in the Mushroom Kingdom we talk about VGM, but it's not spammish whatsoever), it's obvious that spam will be produced. Can anyone think of what (currently) is the topic in Absolute Powerforce. ...I thought not.

Once you have a compiled list of all the clubs, if you find that there are six Pokemon clubs (and literally the topic is just Pokemon, not the anime, not one generation in particular, not competitive Pokemon, just [i]Pokemon[/i]), force them all to merge. Because C&O cannot even properly function if you have six clubs running the same exact topic with the same exact posts but won't merge.

I don't see why this is such a big deal, nor what possible repercussions could come from doing this massive lockage of threads.

On the rules topic, you have your normal spamming, et cetera, but there should be a rule dictating how off topic you can actually get. I find that in the Mushroom Kingdom, we solely talk about Nintendo video games. And Flame Dragon, from what I can tell, probably thinks of that as a legitimate topic. As such, for example, while we can talk about Nintendo video games (and all their aspects, so we aren't really limited at all), we have a grace period and can talk about other video games. While other video games aren't in the club's "what we talk about list", it's our deviation grace. Anything outside of our grace (like talking about food) is considered off-topic, and by extension considered spam.

[Amethyst Phoenix]

I think conversation should flow naturally, rather than having to shoehorn every thing you say into some robotic, artificial frame =/

[Blake]

You kill of what was. Some clubs already had their older versions killed by the forum shift, and locking them to fall to the depths of the C&O section is just going to make the club seem LESS succesful.

Current Topic in Powerforce: Yuigoh and this Club issue. We aren't nearly as off topic/spammy as everyone thinks, although we do, like almost every club, have our moments.

[Dark]

I'm not saying that the mods dictate what and only what we can post. But there should be a cutoff where posting becomes off-topic spamming. If I randomly start talking about how the bluejays look and sound outside my house (or not even randomly; the discussion was spurred when someone mentioned a bluejay as a possible Mario enemy), while it is on-topic to the TOPIC AT HAND IN THE CLUB, it is not on-topic to the topic of the club itself. The Mushroom Kingdom has nothing to do with bluejays, and while it did pertain to the bluejay-as-a-Mario-enemy topic, in its own regard, it is completely off-topic. If there is no cutoff, literally anything and everything can be posted anywhere in C&O under the alias of "it was on-topic if you considered the topic at hand, and it was just letting the conversation flow freely". :/

I don't think you get it. When a club is first formed, it only succeeds because it has an interesting topic or all of your friends have joined. But after this major lockage, when the new thread of the club is opened (presumably at the same time other clubs are reopened), you ALREADY HAVE that interesting topic, and you ALREADY HAVE a bunch of members in your club. You aren't starting anew, just in a new thread. Everything else has stayed the same: you can even go far enough to start where the previous post was. You can refer back to your old thread for information and whatnot. I don't understand why you think it will make clubs die, when it absolutely won't. If a club dies just because it was locked and reopened a week later, that means a club would have died on its own regard in C&O now.

[Blake]

The thread is back at square 1. Sure, you have members, but the actual time it has survived is hidden, as is the amount it has grown, post-wise. Everything that has happened is gone, sent to the bottom of C&O.

They don't need to all be locked. At all. That's like saying we should blow up all schools because some of them are crooked. Or, blow up YCM because there are non-Yu-Gi-Oh sections. Or blow up all countries that were founded as one type of Government, then changed.

[Dark]

OH MY GOD WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE AND BAD ANALOGIES?

The school system is already fine organizationally, and has strict rules already. And I don't even understand your countries analogy.

What you don't seem to get is that [i]all[/i] clubs are being pushed back to the depths of C&O. I can understand a club dying if just this club was locked and reopened a week from now, but the fact that ALL CLUBS ARE STARTING WITH ZERO REPLIES means that the same pattern will happen that is now, the same clubs will be leading in posts, et cetera. Unless you want to believe that all clubs will cease to be active, but we all know that is not even remotely a possibility unless 2012 happens early and we all die literally a second after the clubs are reposted.

This has been quite the heated argument, but now I must sleep.

I hope that you do not argue too much without me, since I seem to be one of the only people actually fighting for and advocating FD's plan.

Good night, sirs.