YCM’s Cold Environment

[mythcaptor]

@ commander tim: should they have to suck it up and live with the first few months/weeks/whatever of learning card maker? I think that it should be an enjoyable journey, and as of yet, it isn't very.

[.Starrk]

I think I'm just gonna say something that everyone thought after they finished reading that. [b]b**** PLEASE.[/b]

[Kaisu]

Anyways, I just going to end it with this.

Any good member who ends up in B/C of my listing will suck up the flaming.

I did and I decided cardmaking wasn't my thing.

So what? I hang around other sections now, because I'm not a 8-year-old idiot.

[CinnamonStar]

Ok this is getting overboard now.
Don't some of you realize that you're acting exactly the way we're talking about here?¬.¬ If nearly everything about YCM is stupid and everyone is a n00b or spammer, then why are you still around?
...Isn't it clear enough that the topic creator was trying to get rid of that problem?

Sure the example he provided wasn't accurate, in fact it was even soft mode. But the essence is true, there are too many arrogant a******s around here who apparently "have lrnd2YCM", "OMG b**** moar pls". Ya know, not everyone who has manners and respect for people is a little pussy, some people simply want to enjoy the place without getting stupid, pseudo-sarcastic remarks about everything.=/

[mythcaptor]

amazing post opalmoon, thanks. Thats exactly what I was trying to say

[CinnamonStar]

...Ok Well just saying that I agree with you.

[TheComposer]

[quote name='Opalmoon' timestamp='1287156023' post='4706787']
Ok this is getting overboard now.
Don't some of you realize that you're acting exactly the way we're talking about here?¬.¬ If nearly everything about YCM is stupid and everyone is a n00b or spammer, then why are you still around?
...Isn't it clear enough that the topic creator was trying to get rid of that problem?

Sure the example he provided wasn't accurate, in fact it was even soft mode. But the essence is true, there are too many arrogant a******s around here who apparently "have lrnd2YCM", "OMG b**** moar pls". Ya know, not everyone who has manners and respect for people is a little pussy, some people simply want to enjoy the place without getting stupid, pseudo-sarcastic remarks about everything.=/
[/quote]

Beautiful, simply beautiful. + rep for that one.

When people first join this, we shouldn't make them go through crap to see if they're "good". Any body can be a good member if taught gently. I understand some (ianwatters) won't listen, but you won't know until you try. They shouldn't be bashed on their very first card. If they don't change for the better after a few cards, then you know they won't lean, then you can bash them for not listening. Until then, don't make them feel bad about themselves after their first card >_<

[Lexsuncion]

[code]Suck it up. I survived and so should they. You can't change YCM. Just as much they can change being Newbs. Nuff said.[/code]

So...Opal pretty-much highlighted the intention of of this thread. It's not to post a single example for all of us to justify or shoot down. It was to point out a problem that a member (Mythcaptor) had observed, and felt needed attention. The solidarity of the forums is lovely, as many senior members immediately went to justify [Jay, I think?] and what they had said. Then we all went on to talk about ourselves, and how we lived through the forums. The above statement in code is what bothers me, however.

I used to DM on a NWN Roleplay server, so it was my duty to make sure conflicts between players were settled as elegantly as possible (Which they never were, because no one talks to us...). Let's pick apart this sentence, pretending that [u]it is[/u] indeed [i]warranted and just in meaning[/i]. It is not flaming, nor is it trolling. We're only going to focus on the mannerism and message sent.

First off: "Suck It Up". is a very blunt and usually offensive thing to say. If someone is hurt, looking into this thread for hope and a potential friend to help them through the YCM forums, do you think "Suck it up" is going to inspire and encourage them?

2: "I survived, and so should they". This is completely and entirely opinionated and based on a standard someone is attempting to force on someone else. Most people consider this type of thing offensive. Everyone is different, and to use one person as an example (Including yourself) to judge others by creates a bias that the "other people" may be entirely unable to live up to, based completely on the fact that they're a different person.

3: "You can't change YCM". Fallacy. This site could be a spawning group for pornographic adds, hateful people, and all sorts of things we, as a community, do not want here if we do not attempt to correct those things as they appear. It certainly wouldn't be the first site to do that. Changing this site starts with changing ourselves, and how we treat others. If we see something rude, or inappropriate, we can report it, or report ourselves if we feel we've overstepped a boundary. The Mods are people who love this site and want to help us, not condemn us.

4: "Just as much as they can't change being Newbs. Nuff Said". This right here is what gets me the most. Not only have you condemned a newb to forever being a newb, but you have also closed off your words by trying to sum up the meaning of the entire topic with the standards that have been previously set with what was said before. These days, I feel that most of us as socially savvy enough to understand that this is very opinionated and shouldn't be taken as fact but for the few out there who don't, who are great people and great members [b]BECAUSE [/b]they haven't been disillusioned by the mannerisms of the world, do we want to throw them off and make them think we're all like this?


Now I'm sure the person who posted this wasn't meaning anything offensive outright. They were probably trying to be helpful. "Just as much as they can't change being newbs" has varying applicability, perhaps only applying to someone when they first join. But what is being missed here is not what WE see, but what the people we're talking to See. Remember, we are not talking with inflection in our voice, or expressions(Emoticons DONT count) or body language. We've cut out A LOT of human communication right there.

[img]http://serialcommakiller.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/metal-fan.jpg?w=295&h=300[/img]


The main point of this is: What we say, and what is heard, are different things already. What we type, and what is read are even more skewed and hopelessly thrown off of accurate interpretation. The only way we can encourage and support the new people to this forum is by first checking ourselves, making sure that we're following appropriate guidelines to social behavior, and then making sure what we're saying is something they'll understand has no intention of hostility...unless it does...then by all means post it so we can report you


[i]Addendum[/i]: Of course, none of us are perfect, and neither is this post or Lexy-poo! In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if my post completely missed its meaning! In the end, we can only try to be nice, happy people. Everyone has their own view and ideals, and like the poster probably meant in their post "You can't change YCM", you can't force other people to change, it has to be something they decide for themselves.

[TheComposer]

Also very well said and thought out. Also + repped (I'm in a good mood)

[CinnamonStar]

Well-said, I think most of us have agreed with the same thing now.
I've wanted to start a club for a while now, to help newbies accomodate to the site and maybe show the older members how to threat them too. Do you think some people would join?

[TheComposer]

[url="http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/221730-newb-salvation-army-stick/page__st__20"]Newb Salvation Army[/url] Basically already been made >_>

[Luna Lovegood]

noob =/= newb

[CinnamonStar]

Yeah I was thinking something like this in club form, because newbs usually don't tend to go and ask for help and that doesn't really make it better... The Newb Defense League was something similar I think, but card-centered.
Oh well we can't get enough of these right?

[TheComposer]

[quote name='Opalmoon' timestamp='1287499445' post='4717597']
Yeah I was thinking something like this in club form, because newbs usually don't tend to go and ask for help and that doesn't really make it better... The Newb Defense League was something similar I think, but card-centered.
Oh well we can't get enough of these right?
[/quote]
More the merrier

[RedRecker]

Well, goodness. This was certainly an interesting find for a topic on a Yugioh Card Making forum and there have been some very interesting points raised, perhaps most notably by Opalmoon and Lexsuncion, that delve into the real heart of what exactly has been brought up here. I do very much like what Lexs has brought up with regards to the manner in which we communicate here. There are many important elements of communication that are either; left out or simply impossible to replicate on the internet. As Lexs has mentioned, there is body language, tone of voice and other expressions in normal face-to-face communication but there is even more that we are able to consider when meeting people in reality. Age, maturity, background, state of mind, grasp of the english language; most of us would be able to pick up on at least some of these things when actually talking to someone and many of us (i hope) would adjust what we said and how we said it accordingly. Unfortunately, as we merely type on the internet, so much of what we say is left open to interpretation by our reader(s). When many of us write our comments, we either don't or can't factor in the aforementioned aspects or potential aspects of our reader(s).

When it comes to attempting to address this however, I do understand that it would be difficult. Not impossible however. I do think that what Opal and Lexs and the individual who started this topic, mythcaptor, are getting at is that more can and should be done on the part of the writers to insure that what we write is at the least more empathetic, polite and considerate to its possible reader and I suspect a reader can also attempt to be more considerate to the possible intentions of the writer. Now of course, it would be impossible to expect an 100% improvement on this. I don't expect such and I don't think anyone who has written in the topic thus far would expect such either. I don't think, however, that the complexity and difficulty present in conveying our criticisms and opinions with an element of consideration for a difference in at least some of the factors mentioned such as age and maturity justifies not attempting to address these factors at all.

It is all too easy for us to make assumptions. In fact, I suspect the internet encourages us to do so. I also understand that nothing is going to be perfect about this. I will have read some of the comments mentioned before and will have formed assumptions with regards to their tone, intention etc, just as many will read what I have written and done the same.

All in all, my main point and opinion in connection to this topic is that not attempting to consider how different to you your reader may be is just as inconsiderate as a reader who doesn't attempt to consider that a writer's intentions may differ greatly from what they currently interpret. Also, it may indeed be helpful for those of us who are older and more mature (as I am sure there is quite an age range on this forum) to be mindful of our position and maintain that maturity by being assertive when necessary but not rude.

[Catterjune]

Suck it up. I survived and so should they. You can't change YCM. Just as much they can change being n00bs. Nuff said.

[LiquidDJ11]

Thank you guys for realizing that, i just joined and yes, im a noobish player at it but ive noticed that my cards i made almost never get a reply, even if i bump it and wait 3 days...

[CinnamonStar]

Of course you can't change people. But if some of us feel like being polite to newbies then we can do it, it's not going to change people's egos but maybe it's going to change a part of the community. Because it's true that the community has been quite dreary lately.=/

^Oh and nice username, very unsuspicious.

[Bassa]

I sorta agree and sorta don't.

Bad Cnc is needed but I agree some people are a bit harsh.

[mythcaptor]

wow red that was really well written! I agree completely

and Pika, thats the attitude that I wrote this thread about. Just live with it isnt good enough, and frankly, Id expect a little more from a mod. I disagree that you cant change ycm, sure it would be a hell of a lot of work, but harder things have been done
(edit, just read lexes post on page two at you, it says what I just said, only way better)

[RedRecker]

You're welcome Mythcaptor. I would also like to thank you for giving me both the opportunity and incentive to express that particular opinion in such a way. I think that it has been very humble of you to put forward this suggestion to the more senior/mature members and you have my full support.

[mythcaptor]

Thanks Red!

[DARKPLANT RISING]

[url=http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/209295-%e2%9c%a3end-game-tutorial-no-3-how-to-not-be-a-noob%e2%9c%a3/]How about this thread?[/url] It's far from finished, and since its creator used to be a noob it's not much, but it might help some.

Anyhow, I agree with your thoughts.

[mythcaptor]

Thats a great tut endgamer. You should ask for it to be stickied

[DARKPLANT RISING]

[quote name='mythcaptor' timestamp='1287774258' post='4726135']
Thats a great tut endgamer. You should ask for it to be stickied
[/quote]
Nah, I'll do it when there's more people posting there.