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[DL]

If killing a fetus is wrong, Mother Nature is a b*tch.

 

And no, it makes no difference if a human kills a fetus or nature kills a fetus.

 

Either way, the fetus end up dead.

[Nexev]

To be honest about the Freya thing I have no clue.

I guess it means you have your own school of thought.

 

But you drain others, even if they don't notice you are making millions a little more devoid of joy than normal.

 

However life is pretty bad anyway, they won't mind.

 

 

BUT:

The adult pregnancy rate associated with rape is estimated to be 4.7%. This information, in conjunction with estimates based on the U.S. Census, suggest that there may be 32,101 annual rape-related pregnancies among American women over the age of 18.17

 

This means there are 32101 people who shouldn't honestly exist in a perfect society every year. People's who's existence derives soley from sin.

 

This sin will hang over there head forever.

 

However if one removed them before birth then there will be 32101 less people to feed, more food for the starving. More importantly the 32101 babies can be used for stem cells which are incredibly useful as miracle workers.

 

So these 32101 murders can also save 32101 lives.

[DL]

....

 

*claps*

 

That deserves an award.

[Lord JZ of the Enigma]

Ah, human nature is the one that causes us to not only go into the Darkest depths of despair, but also the one that looks at that darkness and tries to show some good from it.

 

That is what people are like, a single person's opinion is always greater then the masses and vice-versa.

 

No matter which way you look at it, the entire debate can be seen as evil from either side.

 

And then, if you try to embrace both sides you're considered a Hypocrite, but if you look to ignore the entire thing, then you're considered an oblivious fool, either way, no one wins, and no one gets anything done.

[Spirit of DMG]

Umbilical cords hold the same stem cells, and scientists in at least two countries, including Japan have already found a way to revert specialized cells to Embryonic-like Stem Cells, making extracting them from Fetuses and Embryos unnecessary. Not that it was okay then, since the Umbilical cord thing held true even then. Thus nullifying your argument.

 

And, no, it is different if nature does it. In that case, there is no force which can stop it. If the kid inherits Homogeneous Acondroplazia, then it will die in the womb, before it has time to develop to a fetus, the mother won't know she was ever pregnant, most likely. However, if a human inserts a lethal amount of alcohol into the womb to kill a perfectly healthy baby, that is a conscious choice by man, going against the will of nature, taking a human life without need. Screw how that life got there.

[Nexev]

If Nature was this omnipotent force with a big plan like it's implied then it's said Nature's fault Abortion exists by making it possible in the first place.

[Lord JZ of the Enigma]

So do we all just go ahead and Blame Nature? If we could accuse the forces of Nature for all the crimes it has done against humanity, then it would be a sizable amount of blame, but you also have to consider that without Nature in all it's aspects life on this planet would be impossible.

[Nexev]

No I'm saying that if nature truly has a plan and intentions and such everything we do is allowed.

 

If it wasn't we couldn't do it.

 

Abortion is just as fair as cutting a living being to make a home out of the corpse.

 

Aka log cabins.

 

See what makes any of us assume that this computer you are typing on is following natures will?

 

It may not look natural but the process of making it is simply exploiting a bunch of loopholes nature intentionally left here.

[Lord JZ of the Enigma]

You see life as an architect's point of view, I respect that, I do not condone abortion personally unless it is deadly towards the mother, if it is deadly it must be done quickly(which is not always the case, since many women cannot always tell when they are pregnant). It does not take away from the crime of taking a life, but can we risk two lives in the process, no matter which way you look at it, when it comes to abortion the glass is always half-empty. It is a sad fact of life.

[Spirit of DMG]

Nex, lets look at nature as being the laws of the land. Now, since it is the law not to steal, then it shouldn't be possible. And yet, somehow, it is possible, and people do it. Now, just because the person making the laws says that something is not allowed, that does not make it impossible. God gave man free will, making him able to do anything. But that is the theme of Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Just because we could, does not necessarily mean we should. You focus too much on the fact that we can do it, and that alone means that its okay. You see it as harvesting Stem Cells, or at least creating the opportunity. However, there are too many other ways for that to justify the taking of a life. Sperm and Egg are potential life, its true, but once the ova is fertilized, it is no longer potential life, it is true life. Even nature is not perfect, Nexev, that's why life must consume life to stay alive.In an ideal world, what is right and wrong would be as simple as you make it: if you can. However, the world is not perfect. The last human who was perfect dies somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 years ago. It is not a question of if you can, but one of if you should. WWJD: he would keep the infant's life. Jazeth brought up the topic of saving the mother's life. However, Nex, this goes back to your presenting of created opportunities. Nature has compensated for your Stem Cell thing by creating alternatives: Umbilical cord Stem Cells, which are identical, and the possibility to make specialized cells into Embryonic-Like Stem Cells. In the case of Jazeth's saving the mother, nature as also created an alternative to that: Surrogacy. It is possible to transplant the embryo/fetus into another womb, where it will grow the same way. See, Nexev, Nature is far from perfect, allowing us the ability to do certain things. But that doesn't mean nature intended for us to do them. That's why Nature made a solution to what it was forced to allow us to the ability to do: creating alternatives to, well, most thing

[Sploda]

God gave man free will' date=' making him able to do anything.[/quote']

 

By Saying this are you are implying that someone gave you the ability to be stupid?

 

You focus too much on the fact that we can do it' date=' and that alone means that its okay.[/quote']

 

Well if we can, then why isn't it ok?

 

You see it as harvesting Stem Cells' date=' or at least creating the opportunity. However, there are too many other ways for that to justify the taking of a life. Sperm and Egg are potential life, its true, but once the ova is fertilized, it is no longer potential life, it is true life.[/quote']

 

The Child is not considered born until 7 months, far beyond the abortion time frame. Abortion is not murder.

 

The last human who was perfect dies somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 years ago.

 

I'm curious to know who that is exactly?

[Lord JZ of the Enigma]

Personally, I think when whatever creative force decided to create humans it did give us the ability to be stupid, no matter which way you look at life, stupidity has also achieved many things, especially depending on the notion of "What is Stupidity?"

 

on the second note, who is to decide what is and is not okay? no one has that right, and let's face it, for now no great being is laying down the judgments, so it is up to the individuals to decide, is murder something right? can I really just go outside and shoot someone because I can? it is a question of the facade known as Morality.

 

Third note I don't really care since that is Human opinion but the fourth note seems to be referring to Jesus Christ who would have died around 2000 years ago (Circa 29 A.D.) but also as it is stated by Donovyn, he is "Supposedly Perfect" so one can't really go to deep into that without referring to Christianity itself.

[Spirit of DMG]

Creator, if I showed up and massacred your entire family, would that be okay with you? I doubt it. Yet, I have the ability to do so. I can, but that does not mean that its okay. Now, you said he's not considered born until 7 months. The correction to that is 9. The child isn't born until its out of the mothers body, which is term, which is 9 months. Now, true, he's not born until then, but he is alive, and if you read my posts on that, you'd know why. Now, I have shot massive holes in every pro-abortion comment I've heard, and I have yet to hear a single valid rebuttal against mine. I guess that means I win, unless someone can prove me wrong on any point.

[Lord JZ of the Enigma]

On an unnecessary note how'd you guys get to such a heated debate that not even any of our politicians can agree on? I mean....isn't this club about vampirism? (though in truth I doubt an Abortion Discussion Club will ever come into fruition, nor should it, it would cause noobs to send Negs like crazy to anyone who even knows what the word Rebuttal means...)

[Spirit of DMG]

I think it was up above your application...Nexev casually mentioned it as a way for psyvamps to gain energy, and then, well...

and as for the "club about vampirism," well, its more a club for vampires than about vampires. Though, if you look at the OP, I have added a couple ranks, and I'd like for those who have gained a rank to make a member card to go along with it

[Sploda]

Creator' date=' if I showed up and massacred your entire family, would that be okay with you? I doubt it. Yet, I have the ability to do so. I can, but that does not mean that its okay. Now, you said he's not considered born until 7 months. The correction to that is 9. The child isn't born until its out of the mothers body, which is term, which is 9 months. Now, true, he's not born until then, but he is alive, and if you read my posts on that, you'd know why. Now, I have shot massive holes in every pro-abortion comment I've heard, and I have yet to hear a single valid rebuttal against mine. I guess that means I win, unless someone can prove me wrong on any point.

[/quote']

 

It is considered born, as in it is alive. Otherwise yes you would be correct. Furthermore it is the mother's choice and I'm neither for nor against Abortion, for it is a choice.

 

And to end my part of this discussion I don't believe in a "creative force" I came about just like everyone else, we evolved from motherf***ing apes.

[Spirit of DMG]

...I vote we don't get into a debate on evolution, and offer the classic truce of "agree to disagree" with the current debate, as it is fast becoming obvious neither side is ever going to agree.

[Lord JZ of the Enigma]

I have added a couple ranks' date=' and I'd like for those who have gained a rank to make a member card to go along with it

[/quote']

 

Thanks for finding a way to make me feel like a noob, oh well looks like I got a ways to work up from now on....

 

@LeCréateur: Sorry for mentioning a creative force, I didn't mean to offend *bows*

[Spirit of DMG]

Well, Jazeth, I wasn't trying to make you feel like anything. It's simply that, well, you literally joined yesterday, and Bel I know to be a vampire who can handle that kind of power, and Shadow seems pretty good at handling that position. I should make my own card now...

[Sploda]

@JZ

I'm not offended I just don't believe in a higher being. Because honestly I want to know who could allow themselves to make something as flawed as us...

[DL]

Creator' date=' if I showed up and massacred your entire family, would that be okay with you? I doubt it. Yet, I have the ability to do so. I can, but that does not mean that its okay. Now, you said he's not considered born until 7 months. The correction to that is 9. The child isn't born until its out of the mothers body, which is term, which is 9 months. Now, true, he's not born until then, but he is alive, and if you read my posts on that, you'd know why.[b'] Now, I have shot massive holes in every pro-abortion comment I've heard, and I have yet to hear a single valid rebuttal against mine. I guess that means I win, unless someone can prove me wrong on any point.[/b]

 

So you'd kill your 11-year old daughter for a rapist's fetus?

[Nexev]

Nex' date=' lets look at nature as being the laws of the land. Now, since it is the law not to steal, then it shouldn't be possible. And yet, somehow, it is possible, and people do it. Now, just because the person making the laws says that something is not allowed, that does not make it impossible. God gave man free will, making him able to do anything. B[u']ut that is the theme of Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Just because we could, does not necessarily mean we should.[/u] You focus too much on the fact that we can do it, and that alone means that its okay. You see it as harvesting Stem Cells, or at least creating the opportunity. However, there are too many other ways for that to justify the taking of a life. Sperm and Egg are potential life, its true, but once the ova is fertilized, it is no longer potential life, it is true life. Even nature is not perfect, Nexev, that's why life must consume life to stay alive.In an ideal world, what is right and wrong would be as simple as you make it: if you can. However, the world is not perfect. The last human who was perfect dies somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 years ago. It is not a question of if you can, but one of if you should. WWJD: he would keep the infant's life. Jazeth brought up the topic of saving the mother's life. However, Nex, this goes back to your presenting of created opportunities. Nature has compensated for your Stem Cell thing by creating alternatives: Umbilical cord Stem Cells, which are identical, and the possibility to make specialized cells into Embryonic-Like Stem Cells. In the case of Jazeth's saving the mother, nature as also created an alternative to that: Surrogacy. It is possible to transplant the embryo/fetus into another womb, where it will grow the same way. See, Nexev, Nature is far from perfect, allowing us the ability to do certain things. But that doesn't mean nature intended for us to do them. That's why Nature made a solution to what it was forced to allow us to the ability to do: creating alternatives to, well, most thing

@Underlined: Ladies and gentleman, horror novels: providing us with moral insight and guidance since Nightmare on Elm Street 2.

 

@Blue: So life is only life when abortion can kill it? Until then it's conveniently mere potential life?

 

That is just as selective as me saying that fetus's don't count cause they haven't done anything but grow.

 

And still, those cows and pigs? Actual life the still living kind till you murder them?

 

Does this make it okay? Just because the food you eat is not human that there

 

@Bold:

God thinks all blacks are obsolete farm equipment

God thinks the Jews killed his son and must be punished

God thinks the white man is Satan

God, they know what God thinks

 

God thinks we should all convert to Judaism

God thinks we must all be Christians and

God thinks we should all embrace Islam

God thinks the only true religion is Hinduism

 

And I

I know what God thinks

God thinks you're a waste of flesh

God prefers an Atheist

 

~Voltaire

 

Seriously, don't even TRY to play that card.

 

Jesus never had this funking issue.

 

What god thinks therefore has nothing to do with whatever you say.

 

Remember that time when God told us it was perfectly right for us to us slaves and that the feudal lords were chosen by God?

 

Plus we are talking about the laws of nature. They might not be perfect but since nature is pretty much the universe, everything possible follows it's laws and everything that isn't is simply condoning it.

 

 

@Green: Fine, next time you find a woman willing to suffer your mistake. I mean there must be 32101 woman in the world who really wanted to have children and never realized artificial insemination existed or really wanted to have rapist children.

 

Creator' date=' if I showed up and massacred your entire family, would that be okay with you? I doubt it. Yet, I have the ability to do so. I can, but that does not mean that its okay. [/b']Now, you said he's not considered born until 7 months. The correction to that is 9. The child isn't born until its out of the mothers body, which is term, which is 9 months. Now, true, he's not born until then, but he is alive, and if you read my posts on that, you'd know why. Now, I have shot massive holes in every pro-abortion comment I've heard, and I have yet to hear a single valid rebuttal against mine. I guess that means I win, unless someone can prove me wrong on any point.

 

@Bold: Mass Murder: Proving abortion is wrong since Hitler.

 

@Underlined: No, one can declare that THEY won a debate, that would be the most retarded thing on earth.

 

Only a neutral judge or a opponent can say if the other side won.

 

Otherwise I win cause I said the word Hitler.

 

 

In addition your entire argument solely derives on the fact that abortion is wrong.

According to who?

Well apperantly you since God and Jesus don't take sides.

[Spirit of DMG]

*sigh* It is even more obvious than ever that you refuse to see it for what it is. You see it for what you think it should be. Not all horror novels actually have a point, beyond causing fear. However, when Shelly wrote hers, I believe it was around the discovery of electricity, and her main character was a lot like you: more worried about what could be done, and less about what should be done.

 

God never declared anything involving feudal lords, or slaves. Man did that as an excuse to continue with their disgusting desires. As I said before, nothing in nature is perfect, otherwise Life wouldn't have to consume life. You want it to be okay, just so you can have your stem cells. Which, as pointed out at least twenty times, can be harvested in two alternative ways.

 

I'm not commenting on your hitler thing, as it's just plain ridiculous, but I will say the we never appointed a neutral judge. As for the fact that Jesus never faced this problem, it's still painfully obvious what he'd do if he had. That's why its what would not what [/i]did[/i]. See how that works? It took me a full half a second to figure it out on my own, and you needed it explained to you, what's that say about you?

 

No, they do take sides. Why do you think God told Micheal to cast Lucy out? That sounds like taking sides to me, what about you?

 

Now, since all of this fell on blind eyes, or at the very least, extremely biased eyes, so, as I said, it'd be much, much simpler to just agree to disagree, drop the subject, and never bring it up again.

[DL]

I still agree with nexev, as his point is... clearer.

 

let's just leave it at, whether it's wrong or not, some people will do it, some people won't.

 

But yes, we should get a new topic.

[Spirit of DMG]

So, lets pick up again on the first Vampire Club Card Contest.

I'm thinking three judges:

Me, and two volunteers. Each contestant will pick a vampire-based show/movie, and pick one character to make into a monster card. The judges can not be contestants, and once we settle all that, we'll pick what the prizes are.