I had an idea.

[Guest Welche]

Imagine winning a duel with Dark Bribe. Your opponent decks out. That would be epic.

[Yankee]

I would jizz.

Then I would think about how much I fail, letting the duel last that long, and being forced to win that way.

[SmallieBigs]

so let's say you're dueling Lightsworns they're down to 0 cards and they go to use Heavy Storm to clear the backrow for an OTK and you just use Dark Bribe.

 

 

After that I would realize I fail...

[Yankee]

Actually...I'm not too sure you can even use Dark Bribe if your opponent doesn't have a card in their deck...

Sorta like not being able to Lightning Vortex if the opponent doesn't have monsters...

[Aximil]

You cannot activate "Dark Bribe" if your opponent has no cards remaining in his/her Deck.

[b0b3rt]

That would be fail. Just run Jars as a deck-out.

[Jazin Kay]

A few regionals ago, I saw a duel end because Dark Bribe put a player's last card in their hand.

[shadowferret]

A few regionals ago' date=' I saw a duel end because Dark Bribe put a player's last card in their hand.

[/quote']

 

That happened to me at locals a year or two ago, when Dark Bribe was still just a Game Promo. Annoyed me, because he had one card in his deck and Sangan on the field, and he Bribed my Lightning Vortex.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

That's what happened to me, only I was on the receiving end of the Bribe. >_>

[darkwolf777]

Its as the rulings stating. You cannot activate a card if the effects of said card cannot be performed, which would include your opponent drawing a card in this case.

 

Dark Bribe is one of my favorite traps. I always hear people complain on how its a -1, but that's really dependent on the card you're negating. If not negating the card would turn out to be more than just a -1, then in the end would be worth it lol, but oddly enough some people don't see it like that.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

This card is very good.

 

If your opponent activates a heavy storm or MST on your gravity bind, letting their BW monsters beat the living hell out of you before you can get AIRRAID on the field would be less preferable then just letting them get a kalut in their hand.

[Tronta]

magic drain is so dick.

 

but thats a baka ass ruling. does that mean morphing jar cant deck your opponent out either? or card destruction cant be activated if they have more cards in hand then deck? fuckin bullshit.

[darkwolf777]

magic drain is so dick.

 

but thats a fa**** ass ruling. does that mean morphing jar cant deck your opponent out either? or card destruction cant be activated if they have more cards in hand then deck? fuckin bullshit.

 

Morphing Jar can deck out your opponent as flip effects are mandatory. Card Destruction cannot, as to willingly activate a card's effect, you must be able to perform its actions. If they would not be able to draw cards because they are not enough cards in their deck to do so, then you cannot activate Card Destruction.

 

It should be common sense for Yugioh Players that you cannot willingly activate a card whose effects cannot be performed. This applies to all ignition effects.

 

Even having "Protector of the Sanctuary" on your side the field would prevent you from using Dark Bribe (outside of draw phases anyway) :D

[DARKPLANT RISING]

You can't do that.

 

Anyways, Dark Bribe is very good. Just like bribery goes good in contests

You get a -1 for the card, while your opponent gets 0. However, if your opponent discards for it like Lightning Vortex, -1 and -1. Worst of all, if your opponent is going to use Lightning Vortex and you have 2 monsters, you get a +1 with your opponent being -1.

[Tronta]

that isnt common sense when it comes to decking out, since the way a player loses is by being unable to draw the last card.

i checked the card destruction rulings and saw no such blasphemy.

[darkwolf777]

that isnt common sense when it comes to decking out' date=' since the way a player loses is by being unable to draw the last card.

i checked the card destruction rulings and saw no such blasphemy.

[/quote']

 

What part of "you cannot activate ignition effects whose effects cannot be performed" did you not understand? If it wasn't like that then I could...

 

...Activate Lightning Vortex even if my opponent doesn't have any face-up monsters just so I can discard from my hand for its cost.

 

...Activate Magical Dimension when I don't have a Spellcaster in my hand to Special Summon just so I can destroy 1 monster.

 

...Activate Raise Body Heat on my Maha Vailo even though Raise Body Heat does not state it has to be equipped to a Dinosaur-Type monster, just Maha Vailo wont get Raise Body Heat's ATK boost, but will get the boost from its own effect.

 

But your main concern is drawing cards with card effects, but alas those are card effects too, and would follow the same rules.

 

You cannot activate Pot of Greed if you do not have 2 cards to draw. You cannot activate The Gift of Greed if your opponent does not have 2 cards to draw. You cannot activate Dark Bribe if your opponent does not have 1 card in the deck to draw. Neither you nor your opponent can activate Card Destruction if neither player has enough cards in their decks remaining to draw. Proven wrong via Tag Force 4.

 

What cards are not ignition effects that you can use to deck your opponent? Morphing Jar. Bistro Butcher. Destiny Hero - Defender.

 

You want to know why its not listed in the wiki? Because such knowledge is common sense and should not need to be explained. You can only deck your opponent out if they MUST draw, with mandatory effects. Ignition effects are not mandatory, they are optional (since you choose when to activate them) and you must be able to perform all its effects in order for you to activate it. Card effects that allow for drawing are not excluded from that ruling.

[Tronta]

i knew the other examples already, as i assumed there was an implied prerequisite for their effects. i suppose this information did not readily transfer in my mind to card destruction, or i just assumed it was a special case, because of the whole losing condition thing. i assumed that the fact that card destruction wouldnt resolve properly would end up in my opponent losing, rather than my inability to activate the card.

 

two points though,

first, in terms of common sense, no. it is not. and clearly many people on this site didnt realize it either, or this topic wouldnt exist. furthermore, i've been playing in lolocals against legit players (team shadow, team illusion, etc, if those names ring a bell.) who go to jumps and do fairly well, and i've never been corrected on it, so i would assume that no, it is not common sense at all. why there isnt a ruling is probably the same reason why most of the rulings are there in the first place: stupidity. the things that arent adequately explained by card effects and rule books dont get mentioned, but stupid rulings like vanity's ruler vs overload fusion when using dna transplant make the list. that was a baka ruling too. whatever.

 

my other point, how about this?

you activate book of eclipse main phase one, when your opponent has 3 cards in deck and 2 monsters on field. it resolves successfuly. you then play two shallow graves. the number of facedown monsters on his side of the field is now 4. at the end phase, what happens? the card cant be negated post-resolution, nor could a replay occur after other cards successfully resolved. would he lose?

for reference:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shallow_Grave

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Eclipse

[darkwolf777]

my other point' date=' how about this?

you activate book of eclipse main phase one, when your opponent has 3 cards in deck and 2 monsters on field. it resolves successfuly. you then play two shallow graves. the number of facedown monsters on his side of the field is now 4. at the end phase, what happens? the card cant be negated post-resolution, nor could a replay occur after other cards successfully resolved. would he lose?

for reference:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shallow_Grave

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Eclipse

[/quote']

 

You can activate Book of Eclipse no matter how many cards are in the opponent's deck because the drawing does not occur at the resolution of Book of Eclipse.

 

This card has only one effect at activation: Change all face-up monsters on the field to face-down Defense Position.

 

Then it has a latent effect that occurs later. You didn't even have to go through all that "The Shallow Grave" nonsense to add face-down monsters as you can activate Book of Eclipse even with 0 cards in your opponent's deck at activation as the effect at activation does not require your opponent to draw cards.

 

The drawing is a mandatory latent effect that occurs at a later time. Dark Bribe is not the same, since Dark Bribe's drawing effect occurs at the resolution of when it is activated. The only requirement for using Book of Eclipse is having a face-up monster on the field to flip face-down. To add, yes you can force your opponent to deck out with Book of Eclipse.

[Fraz]

You can play book of eclipse if the opponent has no cards left in deck. When they try to draw they lose. This is because the effect of book is to flip face down; its residual effect is to flip and draw. Residual effect isn't taken into account. Like, I can play limiter removal while I have an effect active that says my machines can't be destroyed, despite limiter having a residual effect that kills machines.

[Dr. Cakey]

i knew the other examples already' date=' as i assumed there was an implied prerequisite for their effects. i suppose this information did not readily transfer in my mind to card destruction, or i just assumed it was a special case, because of the whole losing condition thing. i assumed that the fact that card destruction wouldnt resolve properly would end up in my opponent losing, rather than my inability to activate the card.

 

two points though,

first, in terms of common sense, no. it is not. and clearly many people on this site didnt realize it either, or this topic wouldnt exist. furthermore, i've been playing in lolocals against legit players (team shadow, team illusion, etc, if those names ring a bell.) who go to jumps and do fairly well, and i've never been corrected on it, so i would assume that no, it is not common sense at all. why there isnt a ruling is probably the same reason why most of the rulings are there in the first place: stupidity. the things that arent adequately explained by card effects and rule books dont get mentioned, but stupid rulings like vanity's ruler vs overload fusion when using dna transplant make the list. that was a fa**** ruling too. whatever.

 

my other point, how about this?

you activate book of eclipse main phase one, when your opponent has 3 cards in deck and 2 monsters on field. it resolves successfuly. you then play two shallow graves. the number of facedown monsters on his side of the field is now 4. at the end phase, what happens? the card cant be negated post-resolution, nor could a replay occur after other cards successfully resolved. would he lose?

for reference:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shallow_Grave

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Eclipse

[/quote']

Yes, he would. Your opponent does not need to be able to perform the second effect of Book of Eclipse for you to play it. Another example would be Power Bonding Cyber End while you have <4000 Life Points, or killing yourself with Telekinetic Power Well (I faced a CPU who did this in WC09!).

The problem is that a lot of cards have implied costs. For example, the text of Raigeki Break states: "Discard 1 card. Destroy 1 card on the field." This means:

Cost1: Discard 1 card.

Cost2: Select a card.

Effect: Destroy that card.

An excessively wordy but more accurate text would state: "Discard 1 card and select 1 card on the field. Destroy the selected card."

 

P.S. Yes, this is hard and doesn't make a lot of sense. But, now I get how this works, so I can extrapolate how other cards would work in a given situation. Missing the timing still trips me up all the time, though...

 

EDIT: Crap, 3 people answered the question at the same time. My post was longest, though, so that means it was best.

[darkwolf777]

Yeah, answering Yugioh Q&A is one of the only things I do on this website (aside from creating cards when i'm feeling creative). I might over think sometimes but most of my answers are usually spot on x.x

 

Missing the timing isn't all too difficult, just more annoying if you didn't realize it at first and end up playing poorly because of it when you find effects aren't activating like you thought they would. First you have to determine if an effect is optional or mandatory. If its mandatory, then it'll always activate (when A happens, then do B). If its optional, then you are given a choice to activate its effect. Usually this is denoted by the word "can" (when A happens, you CAN do B...) in its effect. There are probably other ways outside of "can" but that's the most likely.

 

Botanical Girl, Fortune Lady Light, Poison Draw Frog... these are all optional effects and therefore will only work if the last thing to occur was triggers their effect. Compare Botanical Girl to Sangan, which doesn't have the word "can" whose effect is mandatory and will always work once triggered.

 

two points though' date='

first, in terms of common sense, no. it is not. and clearly many people on this site didnt realize it either, or this topic wouldnt exist. furthermore, i've been playing in lolocals against legit players (team shadow, team illusion, etc, if those names ring a bell.) who go to jumps and do fairly well, and i've never been corrected on it, so i would assume that no, it is not common sense at all. why there isnt a ruling is probably the same reason why most of the rulings are there in the first place: stupidity. the things that arent adequately explained by card effects and rule books dont get mentioned, but stupid rulings like vanity's ruler vs overload fusion when using dna transplant make the list. that was a fa**** ruling too. whatever.

[/quote']

 

I may not be a judge of any sort, but maybe its just common sense to me. :3c but it makes perfect sense to not be able to activate cards whose effects you cannot perform. Its not my fault that you or local players in your area don't understand that x.o;

 

Next, Vanity's Ruler's effect makes perfect sense. You cannot Special Summon at all, therefore, you cannot even make attempts to Special Summon, including the tributing of cards on the field for a Special Summon. I could understand that you believe tributing Vanity's Ruler to be a cost for Special Summoning that monster, but if you aren't allowed to Special Summon, then you can't attempt to do so or activate effects either in order to do so.

 

Consider this what we've been talking about the whole time. You cannot activate a card whose effects cannot be performed. In this case, you cannot Special Summon. Therefore, you can take "Chimeratech Fortress Dragon" and turn its summoning requirements into this new Super Special Awesome card:

 

"Chimeratech Summoning Ritual"

Normal Spell

Effect: "Send 1 "Cyber Dragon" and 1 or more "Machine" type monsters on either side of the field to the Graveyard to Special Summon 1 "Chimeratech Fortress Dragon" from your Extra Deck".

 

Now, if Vanity's Fiend was on the field, you wouldn't be able to do this effect. Why? To activate this effect, you must be able to:

A) Sent valid cards on the field to the Graveyard.

B) Be able to Special Summon monsters.

 

Since B cannot be performed, you cannot activate those effects. Same for Overload Fusion or any other card like that. You cannot Special Summon, therefore you cannot activate cards whose effects are to Special Summon a monster.

 

TL;DR Basically, you have to activate the card, then pay the cost. If you cannot activate the card, then you cannot pay its costs.

[Fraz]

Something else to consider is that if a cost would get rid of the reason why yo can't do something, such as Vanity's Fiend being tributed for lava golem or monster gate, or if it would be off the field because of the first part of a card effect like Crystal Abundance you still can't play the card.

[darkwolf777]

Yup yup, that goes to basically what i've been saying the whole time. In order for you activate a card, you must be able to perform all its effects that occur at resolution. If an effect on that card cannot be done at the time you wish to activate it (after considering all current effects going on and physical limits) , then the card cannot be activated in the first place. Again, this only applies to ignition effects or in other words, cards that require your choice in activating.

 

Flip effects and other mandatory effects which activate without your say will activate just fine since they're forced to activate, though that doesn't mean they'll resolve successfully (say having Vanity's Fiend on the field when Supervise is sent from the field to the Graveyard. Supervise as a mandatory effect will activate, but its effect will fail since you cannot Special Summon a monster).

[Tronta]

i understand and agree with the vanity ruling, i was just saying it was stupid that this ruling exists in the wikia:

Chimeratech Fortress Dragon: If "DNA Surgery" turns "Vanity's Fiend" into a Machine' date=' you still cannot Special Summon, so you cannot send "Vanity's Fiend" to the Graveyard to Special Summon "Chimeratech Fortress Dragon".[4']

 

when it's clearly a contrived and ridiculous circumstance involving multiple bad and quite strange card selections. maybe some sort of strange monarch-oppression build guest-starring vanity's fiend...

 

however, despite the far-reaching and bizarre circumstantial rulings, a simple one like "you cannot deck your opponent out via card destruction" is no where to be found.

 

 

now how about this question, then:

is it legal to count the number of cards in your or your opponents deck mid-game?

[darkwolf777]

Well to end the discussion, I decided that I had to try it out myself (in Tag Force 4). To my surprise, you apparently CAN use Card Destruction to deck your opponent.

 

I did later notice you cannot use "Hand Destruction" if neither player had 2 cards to draw, but I guess the key different between Card Destruction and Hand Destruction is that Card Destruction does not require a specific amount if cards to be drawn at resolution, but only to draw as many that were discarded, which would allow it to be usable, so would be the case.

 

In any case, you win the Card Destruction battle, but not the war!

 

Ah well. One step closer to perfecting myself in the massive rulelist that is Yugioh. I wont forget :D