For the sake of today, lets discuss Test Tiger

[Guest PikaPerson01]

@peopletalkingabout&stuff: Test Tiger is so obviously good in its deck and so obviously useless outside of its deck that there is nothing worth discussing besides list position. Unless' date=' of course, you people are so thick that its strength doesn't go without saying.

 

I remember my last match. In one moment, I had a 3100 ATK Synchro and another beatstick, and 1 Face-down card. My opponent's field was empty. He drew some random card. Activated Fissure. Effect, destroy my monster, activate another Fissure, destroys my other monster, summoned Breaker the Magical Warrior and destroyed my face down, that was Bottomless and I chained to it.

 

Silly Pika, everyone knows that Breaker doesn't get priority~

 

He has priority to gain a counter, doesn't he? o_o

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

@peopletalkingabout&stuff: Test Tiger is so obviously good in its deck and so obviously useless outside of its deck that there is nothing worth discussing besides list position. Unless' date=' of course, you people are so thick that its strength doesn't go without saying.

 

I remember my last match. In one moment, I had a 3100 ATK Synchro and another beatstick, and 1 Face-down card. My opponent's field was empty. He drew some random card. Activated Fissure. Effect, destroy my monster, activate another Fissure, destroys my other monster, summoned Breaker the Magical Warrior and destroyed my face down, that was Bottomless and I chained to it.

 

Silly Pika, everyone knows that Breaker doesn't get priority~

 

He has priority to gain a counter, doesn't he? o_o

 

He would get the counter, but it starts a chain and he would get the counter at resolution, so he couldn't activate his effect to remove the counter and destroy a card. The summon has to be successful for him to get the counter. [/totally didn't contridict himself]

 

Either way, he can't activate his effect until he is successfully summoned.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

I know... I'm just being an incompetent loon to parody the post directly in front of it. >_>

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

Your post still puts forth the fact that Test Tiger isn't a problem.

[CrabHelmet]

@peopletalkingabout&stuff: Test Tiger is so obviously good in its deck and so obviously useless outside of its deck that there is nothing worth discussing besides list position. Unless' date=' of course, you people are so thick that its strength doesn't go without saying.

 

I remember my last match. In one moment, I had a 3100 ATK Synchro and another beatstick, and 1 Face-down card. My opponent's field was empty. He drew some random card. Activated Fissure. Effect, destroy my monster, activate another Fissure, destroys my other monster, summoned Breaker the Magical Warrior and destroyed my face down, that was Bottomless and I chained to it.

 

Silly Pika, everyone knows that Breaker doesn't get priority~

 

He has priority to gain a counter, doesn't he? o_o

 

But he doesn't get priority to destroy the face-down.

 

(In before people complain that players get priority, not cards, or something else of that nature.)

 

 

At any rate, your post pretty much sums up what Test Tiger is: he requires heavy deck dedication and an appropriately-archetyped monster of the field, but with those conditions met he becomes your choice of a non-discarding Tribute to the Doomed, a Normal Spell MST, a Normal Spell D.D. Crow, a one-turn Twin Swords of Flashing Light, an archetyped ROTA that isn't monster-exclusive but doesn't trigger until the Battle Phase, an archetyped Monster Reborn that stops the monster from using its effects or attacking, an archetyped Reincarnation that isn't monster-exclusive and doesn't have a discard cost, and... a Normal Spell Rush Recklessly. Essentially, an incredibly versatile and moderately powerful Normal Spell.

 

The question is whether that is banworthy. The fact that any given possibility for the Normal Spell is at least not overpowered compared to existing generic Normal Spells refutes Tronta's assertion that it allows massive nuke combos of doom (as does the fact that choosing the monster removal effect includes a downside of shrinking the user's monster's ATK, harming OTK's). As it stands, the 0-Tiger case has not been proven, and the 1-Tiger case... well, actually, I'm not sure the 1-Tiger case even exists yet.

 

The current position based on the points made thus far appears to be 3. Burden of proof rests on those who wish it to be at 2, 1, or 0 to make their cases.

[Flame Dragon]

At 3. The only problems that result from his use only happen because of other bannable cards (Cat and Gyz) and those wouldn't be present on a good list.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Your post still puts forth the fact that Test Tiger isn't a problem.

 

I... think that was the point... o_o

[Aero~]

why is today so special?

I just got one at a regional today.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

why is today so special?

 

Chinese New Year. Year of the Tiger.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

why is today so special?

I just got one at a regional today.

 

It's Valentine's day/S.A.D. (Singles Appreciation Day), and besides, what ISN'T special about today? It's not like it can ever be tomorrow or yesturday, today is all we have :S

[RyanAtlus]

BURN THE CAT

 

As stated by everyone before me, Kitty and Gyzarius are bigger problems than this.

Whining about Testes Tiger would be like whining about Shire with Celestia @3 and JD @2.

[Tronta]

that statement, crabs, only disproves mine when you don't take contact fusions into consideration. that normal spell monster reborn (which, if the banlist is anything to go by, is overpowered), can instantly (or with the addition of another card) become a 3k beater with a constant psuedo-dark bribe, or instantly become a more broken monarch.

 

without contact fusions, gbs are just a very strong toolbox, so test tiger wouldnt really be that broken.

 

however, the fact of the matter is that even though none of those spells you mentioned are overpowered (save reborn), the fact that the card can instantly become any of them at will is a little disheartening. a normal spell that offered any of those options would likely be bannable.

 

as i stated before, gbs get a rather powerful toolbox when compared to the old ratbox. however, the balance that allows them to do this is a two part condition. first, they have to successfully attack. second, the toolbox effect can only take place in main phase 2. this is a fair balance to them, assuming the individual parts of the toolbox dont get too overpowered.

 

allowing them to bypass both of these conditions at a mere -1 (a card you can run 3 of, and is searchable) takes all the balance out of them. they're still not meta, but that doesnt mean they arent overpowered, just means the meta is more overpowered, which is a little disturbing tbh.

 

and then we get to funking rescue cat. another problematic card that makes it more exploitable. of course rescue cat is listworthy.

[CrabHelmet]

that statement' date=' crabs, only disproves mine when you don't take contact fusions into consideration. that normal spell monster reborn (which, if the banlist is anything to go by, is overpowered), can instantly (or with the addition of another card) become a 3k beater with a constant psuedo-dark bribe,

[/quote']

 

I don't see how Test Tiger gives significant assistance to Contact Fusion, at least not in a broken way. It doesn't change the number of Gladiator Beasts you control (unless it grabs Darius, who can always make that change later anyhow), so it doesn't assist the required swarm. It does change which Gladiator Beasts you control, allowing you to get out the specific one needed for the Contact Fusion, but that is just a minor bonus that hardly seems to make Test Tiger broken, especially when one considers that the Gladiator Beasts can just tag for the correct materials after the Battle Phase anyhow.

 

or instantly become a more broken monarch.

 

I'm going to say this now: Gyzarus is banworthy. Gyzarus is very much banworthy. Gyzarus should be banned. Gyzarus should be placed at 0. Gyzarus should not be permitted. Gyzarus is bad for the game. Gyzarus should be forbidden.

 

without contact fusions' date=' gbs are just a very strong toolbox, so test tiger wouldnt really be that broken.

[/quote']

 

With Gyzarus out of the picture, as he should be, then what does Test Tiger do that's so banworthy? It gets Laquari - whose effect isn't even useful if you're about to Contact Fuse it anyhow - out for Heraklinos? If that's broken, then Heraklinos himelf is broken. I don't see how you could anywhere argue that the Fusion Monster is fine but Test Tiger is the problematic link.

 

however' date=' the fact of the matter is that even though none of those spells you mentioned are overpowered (save reborn),

[/quote']

 

Even the greatly-weakened version of Reborn?

 

the fact that the card can instantly become any of them at will is a little disheartening. a normal spell that offered any of those options would likely be bannable.

 

This is the one point on which one might argue that Test Tiger could be a problem.

 

However' date=' bear in mind that Test Tiger has the additional cost of an incredibly dedicated deck, and that that deck is full of monsters that each have an identical variety of effects, albeit at a different time. If Test Tiger's versatility is bad for the game, then perhaps the same could be said of all [s']religions[/s] Gladiator Beasts. is the Normal Spell timing that overpowered?

 

as i stated before' date=' gbs get a rather powerful toolbox when compared to the old ratbox. however, the balance that allows them to do this is a two part condition. first, they have to successfully attack. second, the toolbox effect can only take place in main phase 2. this is a fair balance to them, assuming the individual parts of the toolbox dont get too overpowered.

[/quote']

 

The end-of-Battle-Phase tagging has the added benefits both of not costing any cards and of the player being confident of being able to activate one or perhaps several of these effects each turn. Test Tiger costs a hand card, but a player cannot rely on being able to play one every turn, and certainly not on several per turn.

 

allowing them to bypass both of these conditions at a mere -1

 

Don't forget the reliability issue. A player can be sure of attacking and triggering all effects on most turns.

 

And don't ignore the impact of a -1. Lightning Vortex's generic -1' date=' which can place cards with affinity for the Graveyard exactly where they want to be, is what takes it from broken to fairly weak. Test Tiger's extra cost can't even be used to dump a Necro Gardna.

 

(a card you can run 3 of,

 

The probability of opening at least one copy of an unlimited card in a forty-card deck is less than 40%.

 

Being unlimited hardly seems to let a Gladiator Beast player be confident of plopping down Test Tigers turn after turn. Which, in turn, means that

 

and is searchable)

 

By what? With the problems of Rescue Cat and Sangan dealt with' date=' what's left to search Test Tiger? Giant Rat?

 

takes all the balance out of them. they're still not meta, but that doesnt mean they arent overpowered, just means the meta is more overpowered, which is a little disturbing tbh.

 

You seem to be assuming that we're using a list in which the meta is broken, i.e. a bad list, i.e. not a good list, i.e. not a list which would contain the correct locations of cards anyhow. That seems like an absurdly poor metric.

 

and then we get to f***ing rescue cat. another problematic card that makes it more exploitable. of course rescue cat is listworthy.

 

Rescue Cat should be at 0 even without Test Tiger.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Wow, I missed out on this topic?

 

Anyway, obviously it should be at 3. It's balanced theme support. If it's involved in some sort of "broken" combo, the other piece(s) is/are far more likely to be the problem card(s)

[Tronta]

first, dedication doesnt imply balance. that would be like arguing a balancing factor of judgment dragon is that he can only be run in lightsworns. it isnt really a handicap of any sort. it makes it less splashable, but not less powerful. it will be used in less deck types, but not necessarily fewer decks. people have no problem running dedicated decks for this or that if the benefits are powerful enough.

 

after that being said,

lets summarize this:

 

i disagree that he's fair on two points:

first, i argue that he bypasses the inherent balancing of the gb toolbox at a mere -1. (a -1 is something to consider, however this could potentially be more powerful than a vortex, furthermore, see my second point)

second, that same -1 is really all it costs to activate any of those effects.

if a normal spell card were released that said:

"discard one card, then activate one of the following effects:

-destroy one monster on the field

-destroy one st on the field

-a monster on your side of the field gets to attack twice

-special summon a monster from your grave (theme specific)

-remove a monster from your opponents grave

-pump your monster to 21 attack or defense

-etc"

would it be balanced?

 

its arguable, but i think the pure versatility and options, even at the cost of a dedicated deck, would make it listworthy.

 

 

however, if we ban gyzarus, rescue cat, and fix equeste's errata, test tiger may very well end up being fine. its hard to predict something so far away.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

There are plenty of awful decktypes that manage to get off with pretty broken effects. Batterymen, Ojama Delta Hurricane... that's all I got off the top of my head. However, I don't see the problem with a decent-ish decktype getting decent-ish support.

 

I just don't see what all the hubub is between getting the GB's effect at MP2 rather then MP1.

[Tronta]

the fact that a battle phase comes in between?

assuming, for a moment, gyzarus is fair:

 

assume my field is a monster and an st that isnt bottomless.

 

summon gladiator beast johnny. foolish best. test tiger johnny into darius, revive best, get gyzarus, nuke the other st and the monster, attack for 24, tag into two laquaris.

 

now, if the tag into gyzarus happened main phase 2, i would have a chance to respond to the attack with an st, or have a monster stop the attack via it's presence.

 

furthermore, gyzarus back in the extra deck means he's safe. i cant vortex him, i cant run him over, he's totally protected and can continue to come out at will.

 

last, the field is now two laquaris, which are difficult to run over, and a fine set up for the next turn.

 

 

the infinite powerful toolbox comes with the cost that aside from destruction, you cant use it immediately. furthermore, its vulnerable the following turn.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

In order to work, your argument:

 

a) Requires a combo to work that requires a bit of a set up.

b) Requires a faulty opening assumption.

 

So like... yeah, there's no reason to argue against you if you're just gonna act retarded and ignore everything that's already been said.

[Tronta]

i disagree entirely.

 

first: the combo i illustrated is one of many possible, and it only takes 3 cards in hand. one being any gladiator beast that can be normal summoned. other methods exist to make this work. test tiger + summon priest + any spell, for example, is another popular play.

 

second: faulty though the assumption may be, the fact is that gyzarus is still unlimited.

 

maybe the original question of this discussion needs to be reconsidered to resolve this discrepancy. is the question whether or not test tiger deserves to be listed, or whether or not he deserves to be listed on a good list?

 

assuming the latter, and assuming a variable definition of "good" that implies that both gyzarus and rescue cat are banned, then i am not sure. i dont believe we know enough about how gladiators would change given this fictitious list to make a measure of whether or not, A. glads would even be run, or B. how good test tiger would be in the deck. furthermore, the meta itself would change given a "good" list, so glads may become nonexistent, rendering the discussion moot. they may also top, rendering it paramount. glads position in relation to this fictitious meta would likely alter the course of this discussion greatly, as well as altering our definitions of "overpowered" and "bannable"

 

to revisit an earlier point:

assuming that this is all in terms of the present list, and no other banlist alterations could be made (as they would imply evidence of a "good" list), then i believe test tiger is listable. however, as glads are currently tier 2 or thereabouts, i dont think this discussion is too important.

 

 

to revisit your argument:

fine, instead of giving an example that gets trashed, i'll just give a simple point.

test tiger allows you to toolbox twice per turn, before and after the battle phase.

this allows you to use the gb toolbox to clear obstructions to attacking, which ensures a more powerful and safer toolbox during main phase 2.

it bypasses the few requirements placed on the ability to use the gb toolbox, which are the inherent balances that allow the deck to have such a powerful toolbox (in comparison to others).

 

and lastly:

ya, funk you too ass hole. you asked a question and i tried to illustrate an answer. ad hominem doesnt make you sound cooler, nor does it lend weight to your argument. funking child.

[Canadian]

One of my favourite cards. Keep @ 3. And GB forever ~ <3

[Guest Welche]

Summon on first turn and get any glad you want. Nuff' said.

[daboss144]

Annoying? Yes

Broken? No

It is 1. Relatively Easy to Counter

2. This card is only as broken as the effect of the glad that it summons, so if it is used to get out Gyzarus via darius, sure it's broken, does that mean that darius is broken?

3. Gyzarus is bannable

4. It's too cute to ban, this is why rescue cat isn't banned yet.

 

I understand argument 1 is usually a terribad argument to make, but the payoff usually isnt ridiculous enough to even require countering.

[arkel]

Card in question: Test Tiger

Position that I Support: 3

Reasoning:

 

PROHIBITED - This is the only part of the list that's even remotely arguable. Test Tiger's versatility to transform any GB into an MST, pseudo-Reborn, 21k beater, Fissure, archetype-specific Reincarnation, D.D. Crow, 24k beater, and anything else I'm missing could possibly prove to be a problem. The next question would be whether or not Test Tiger is the problem, or if all GBs are the problem. Banning the entirity of the archetype would be just plain silly, considering they are (bar Gyzarus and possibly Herk) entirely balanced. Considering Test Tiger's possible "effects" aren't broken in any way, I believe that the balance of said "effects" outweighs Test Tiger's versatility.

 

LIMITED - If in fact Test Tiger is a problem, putting it at 1 does not solve the problem, just how often the problem occurs.

 

SEMI-LIMITED - See Limited reasoning.

 

 

 

... Alright, so instead of babbling nonsense like half of this thread, I took the time to reason out why Test Tiger should be at 3, the main point of why Crab created this "discussion," if you can even call it that now. From now on, instead of saying " 'Card in question' at 1 cuz it's annoying lolololol111!!!one!," can we just please take the time to explain our thoughts? Honestly, it's not hard, and it makes YCM look like less of an idiot. [/rant]

[Manjoume Thunder]

*ignores the whole thread, because he is too lazy to read 3 pages.*

 

3, because right now good GB decks don't run him.

[Toffee.]

Crab parodys a topic mine, again <3

 

*ignores the whole thread' date=' because he is too lazy to read 3 pages.*

[/quote']

*did the same*

 

You guys remember Atem's avatar' date=' don't you? It is so appropriate for this situation.

[/quote']

But your expecting soo much from YCM-Kun D:

Most of us on here arent that big on metagame

 

Ban the cat. Keep this card at 3.

Rescue Cat is fine @3, my deck is immune to Rescue Cat.

 

To be honest, Airbellum is the problem as to why Rescue Cat is @1 in the first place :/