Deck Contest: I'm trying to make a point here, so here's a challange

[-Griffin]

Still waiting for Decks

[Master White]

I would do this, but I can't base anything on that card, but if you want, I have 56 written cars for a deck, and I could have them in here by maybe next monday, or I could make a whole new complete stuctured deck that all goes together, as long as it can be anything and original. You choose.

[-Griffin]

No. The only custom card must be this one. It isn't really about making the best Deck, it's about understanding the fundamental principal of balance that so many people miss out.

[Master White]

oh, okay, I understand balance, but sometimes, you might want to think about how balanced some of the real yugioh cards are, just letting you know that. People may think it is fair to play with them and others may not, and I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, just friendly and helpful, but thats what I'm assume is going to happen. Is that the balance your expecting could be ideal to yours, could be completely off proportion, or could be well balanced determine by all others, but you. So I thought that might help you, but I'm sure you already knew that and you started this for people who don't understand or have problems understanding the ideal balance, and that is the proper reason why I won't join, in no offense to you or anything, of course, its just because I'm usually fair at getting right. I do have some issues time to time, but I know if they are overpowered or underpowered when I make my cards. But have fun. I hope it works out for you, best of luck to you.

[-Griffin]

Actually, most people on YCM that think they understand balance are doing it entirely wrong.

[Master White]

Actually' date=' most people on YCM that think they understand balance are doing it entirely wrong.

[/quote']

 

Oh, then can you give me a precerpt of what the right way is for card balance and I'll show you a card that I think is really balanced, and i got a 9 from ragnarock, which is the highest I've ever gotten on any card I make.

[-Griffin]

Most people balance cards, based on the card itself.

 

This is wrong.

 

They should be balanced based on the Decks that can use it.

[玄魔の王]

No. The only custom card must be this one. It isn't really about making the best Deck' date=' it's about understanding the fundamental principal of balance that so many people miss out.

[/quote']

 

*Points at BWW, DAD, PSZ, etc.*

 

I see your point, but it's hard to preach about balance when the people who made the game clearly don't understand it.

[-Griffin]

And you, Genma, have just managed to jump up and shout out a nice big fallacy of balance for us all.

 

I want you to think slowly before you make your next post, about why saying BWW is broken is a mistake here, and is going against the point of this exercise.

[Master White]

Ah, so your wanting people to understand that some cards tie in with others, which make them balanced together, instead of individually. In a sense, I think that is great idea you got going on their, I made 56 cards for a set and put them all together, and none follwed any propaganda on balance, effect, or ocg. All they did say is that pics looked awful and so one, which is not right. But, its ok to make one card and call it good, because many here on this thread like to make one card, so then they can improve the balance individually then rather together, so then they know if it gets real popular or falls to the junk hole, Me on the other hand, will prbly be moving my card effects to the written cards, because it is an so much better place to get evaluated. Thats all imo, tho.

[玄魔の王]

And you' date=' Genma, have just managed to jump up and shout out a nice big fallacy of balance for us all.

 

I want you to think slowly before you make your next post, about why saying BWW is broken is a mistake here, and is going against the point of this exercise.

[/quote']

 

I'm just telling it like it is. Your exercise is trying to tell people about balancing a card within a Deck, as opposed to balancing the card itself. The thing is though, if you put a ball and chain on a rocket, it still goes at Mach 2.

[-Griffin]

This isn't the same as that though.

If you removed all of the effects from Blackwing Monsters, would BWW be broken?

I wouldn't say so.

If the monsters all had weaker but still noticeable effects, would BWW be broken?

Good, probably, but I doubt anyone would complain that it needs list attention.

 

Cards are not broken unless they effectively win the game by themselves or fit into any Deck, regardless of other cards. What is broken is Decks.

 

DAD, you can easily argue is too game winning, so fair enough to take him outside of the context of a Deck. BWW is only "broken" because it supports already useful cards, Blackwings, very effectively. It's also important to note that just as much, Blackwings could be said to support BWW by making it a good card and giving it viable targets, and they do it well enough that they're broken.

 

Both views are wrong. They equally support each other and it is the DECK that is arguably broken.

 

In the same way, Level Eater could support the card this topic is about, or this card could support Level Eater. It's the fact they work in a DECK.

 

You don't duel against cards, you duel against Decks.

 

I could make a 2500 ATK normal. If it was a wind/aqua level 4 with no archtype support, it would be useless, because no Deck would actually run it.

 

Cards are balanced by cards around them even more than by what is actually on the card. For example, in a format with the cards on the banlist all at three, JD and DAD would all be useless toilet paper cards because they don't help any FTKs. On the other end of the spectrum, the YCCG, Cloudians would be as broken as anything since there is minimal card removal and their counter effects would accumulate to an insane level.

 

This exercise is to point out that whenever you comment on card balance, you have to think about what Decks it is balanced in. If I post cards for the YCCG, don't jump to call them UP'd without knowing the style of play there. In the same light, don't post that a card is OP'd for the TCG when, regardless of its effect, it's type/attribute/effect doesn't have enough support to actually work in any Deck that could see competitive play.

[Master White]

And you' date=' Genma, have just managed to jump up and shout out a nice big fallacy of balance for us all.

 

I want you to think slowly before you make your next post, about why saying BWW is broken is a mistake here, and is going against the point of this exercise.

[/quote']

 

I'm just telling it like it is. Your exercise is trying to tell people about balancing a card within a Deck, as opposed to balancing the card itself. The thing is though, if you put a ball and chain on a rocket, it still goes at Mach 2.

 

I agree, the way you put it tho is kinda funny, but point taken.

[玄魔の王]

This isn't the same as that though.

If you removed all of the effects from Blackwing Monsters' date=' would BWW be broken?

I wouldn't say so.

If the monsters all had weaker but still noticeable effects, would BWW be broken?

Good, probably, but I doubt anyone would complain that it needs list attention.

 

[b']I might agree with you if any other Decks had a similar card, but Blackwings are the only ones who never lose hand advantage when you Normal Summon them.[/b]

 

Cards are not broken unless they effectively win the game by themselves or fit into any Deck, regardless of other cards. What is broken is Decks.

 

DAD, you can easily argue is too game winning, so fair enough to take him outside of the context of a Deck. BWW is only "broken" because it supports already useful cards, Blackwings, very effectively. It's also important to note that just as much, Blackwings could be said to support BWW by making it a good card and giving it viable targets, and they do it well enough that they're broken.

 

Both views are wrong. They equally support each other and it is the DECK that is arguably broken.

 

In the same way, Level Eater could support the card this topic is about, or this card could support Level Eater. It's the fact they work in a DECK.

 

You don't duel against cards, you duel against Decks.

 

I could make a 2500 ATK normal. If it was a wind/aqua level 4 with no archtype support, it would be useless, because no Deck would actually run it.

 

Cards are balanced by cards around them even more than by what is actually on the card. For example, in a format with the cards on the banlist all at three, JD and DAD would all be useless toilet paper cards because they don't help any FTKs. On the other end of the spectrum, the YCCG, Cloudians would be as broken as anything since there is minimal card removal and their counter effects would accumulate to an insane level.

 

This exercise is to point out that whenever you comment on card balance, you have to think about what Decks it is balanced in. If I post cards for the YCCG, don't jump to call them UP'd without knowing the style of play there. In the same light, don't post that a card is OP'd for the TCG when, regardless of its effect, it's type/attribute/effect doesn't have enough support to actually work in any Deck that could see competitive play.

 

You seem to forget that prior to BWW, Blackwings saw very little play because their effects weren't powerful enough to make up for the lack of support.

 

That being said, your little speech does make your side clear.

[-Griffin]

This isn't the same as that though.

If you removed all of the effects from Blackwing Monsters' date=' would BWW be broken?

I wouldn't say so.

If the monsters all had weaker but still noticeable effects, would BWW be broken?

Good, probably, but I doubt anyone would complain that it needs list attention.

 

[b']I might agree with you if any other Decks had a similar card, but Blackwings are the only ones who never lose hand advantage when you Normal Summon them.[/b]

 

Firstly, what is wrong with "not losing hand advantage" being an aspect of Blackwings? Is having an archtype which uses that as a point in the same way Cloudians could be said to use battle immunity, against the point of the game? BWW, to me, is a defining point of their playstyle, and in that way is acceptable on its own, and could only be broken in Deck context.

 

Secondly, Gadgets.

 

Cards are not broken unless they effectively win the game by themselves or fit into any Deck, regardless of other cards. What is broken is Decks.

 

DAD, you can easily argue is too game winning, so fair enough to take him outside of the context of a Deck.

 

BWW will not make the game effectively unwinnable when played decently and uncountered, which is the extreme I'm taking it to before the theory is redundant.

 

You seem to forget that prior to BWW, Blackwings saw very little play because their effects weren't powerful enough to make up for the lack of support.

 

That being said, your little speech does make your side clear.

[Master White]

Oh, Genma no Oo

I could make a 2500 ATK normal. If it was a wind/aqua level 4 with no archtype support, it would be useless, because no Deck would actually run it.

 

The qoute, I can use that card in my deck, because I have built a normal deck, and that attack with a normal card would be great, so I'm sorry, but I had to throw that in their.

[-Griffin]

Yes, but even with that, your Deck wouldn't be able to stand up to the current meta Decks, so nothing would be overpowering.

Allow me to rephrase that as "no competitive Deck would actually run it."

[Master White]

Yes' date=' but even with that, your Deck wouldn't be able to stand up to the current meta Decks, so nothing would be overpowering.

Allow me to rephrase that as "no [u']competitive[/u] Deck would actually run it."

 

Ok, now thats better. But I'm the type that builds and plays yugioh for the fun of it, not competitively. So, that why I came here, to build cards for the fun of it, not competitively.

[-Griffin]

Exactly, but cards can't really be OP'd without being competitive, and this is an exercise in balance, therefore OP'd or UP'd-ness, therefore competitiveness.

 

I don't really play competitively, mostly tier 2 Decks, but that doesn't change the fact that I know what puts tier 1 Decks where they are, and as a result, about balance in cards.

[Master White]

I played with a tier 1 deck, you know what I didn't like about it, it didn't work for me. I had all the upbeat cards on it, but it just didn't seem ight for me. I will also tell you the deck I built was ranked pro, so you had to know what you were doing.

[-Griffin]

Because cards don't play themselves is irrelevant to the topic of how useful they are. Of course, it can be related to if it's a well designed card, but not if it's a balanced one.

[Master White]

well, what i was getting at, which supports you, is how Koaki Meiru decks have a tendency being overwhelmingly balanced in all the singularities, but together, they all are too balanced, is what I believe.

[玄魔の王]

Oh' date=' Genma no Oo [b']*Sigh* Shut up...[/b]

I could make a 2500 ATK normal. If it was a wind/aqua level 4 with no archetype support, it would be useless, because no Deck would actually run it.

 

The quote, I can use that card in my deck, because I have built a normal deck, and that attack with a normal card would be great, so I'm sorry, but I had to throw that in their.

 

I might refute Griffin's points, but at least I do undertaken them agree with them to some extent. You're arguing for argument's sake. And where's that Deck you were gonna post?

[Master White]

Oh' date=' Genma no Oo [b']*Sigh* Shut up...[/b]

I could make a 2500 ATK normal. If it was a wind/aqua level 4 with no archetype support, it would be useless, because no Deck would actually run it.

 

The quote, I can use that card in my deck, because I have built a normal deck, and that attack with a normal card would be great, so I'm sorry, but I had to throw that in their.

 

I might refute Griffin's points, but at least I do undertaken them agree with them to some extent. You're arguing for argument's sake. And where's that Deck you were gonna post?

 

who are ya talkin' to and if its me, I'm confused.

[玄魔の王]

Oh' date=' Genma no Oo [b']*Sigh* Shut up...[/b]

I could make a 2500 ATK normal. If it was a wind/aqua level 4 with no archetype support, it would be useless, because no Deck would actually run it.

 

The quote, I can use that card in my deck, because I have built a normal deck, and that attack with a normal card would be great, so I'm sorry, but I had to throw that in their.

 

I might refute Griffin's points, but at least I do undertaken them agree with them to some extent. You're arguing for argument's sake. And where's that Deck you were gonna post?

 

who are ya talkin' to and if its me, I'm confused.

 

I'm talking to you. If you know so much about Decks, where's your Distracted Deck?