The End.

[Crow™]

Banning Armor Master!? D=

 

Lessay its combination of battle immunity' date=' LP immunity, huge stats, and unique effect would traumatize anyone who met it.

[/quote']

But that's why he's the best ace monster ever. :/

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I don't think armor master should be banned. He basically is no worse than colossal fighter. There are worse problems in BW than him.

[Mysty]

You banned Cydra? Burn this list. it fails. And why would you ban 1 piece of exodia? NO SENSE.

 

Cydra is a powerful monster that rewards bad play and can easily turn a game around with his many uses. Banworthy.

Ban one piece of Exodia and the automatic victory can no longer be achieved.

 

Has there been a shift in time? Automatic victory w/ Exodia is back? Oh' date=' wait, thats just you not knowing what you're talking about >.<

[/quote']

 

Since you're not complaining about my suggestion of banning Cyber Dragon, I suppose you agree with it or just don't care, so let's junp straight into the Exodia issue.

You seem to be basing your argument that Exodia isn't banworthy on two things:

1. There are many ways to counteract it.

2. It isn't used in this meta.

However, neither of these arguments can be used in determining how powerful a card is because:

1. Counterability doesn't balance a card.

2. The meta is based on Konami's list, which uses a different set of logic than 3/0.

If you decide to use Konami's list to help decide where a card should be on the ban list, you might as well just follow Konami's judgment, which sometimes (if not usually) isn't that great.

 

In a balanced meta, Exodia could be somewhat easily obtained. the most important argument for the banning of Exodia is because it is a lucksack victory and increases the influence luck has in the game. Monster Reborn was banned at least partly because it could turn the entire game around the second you drew it given the right conditions. The same situation exists with Exodia, except the situation is far more situational and the effect it produces is greater than that of Monster Reborn.

 

That, and, according to Masked Duelist,

Most people I know at locals have Exodia OTK.

Exodia is used.

[Tabris]

I don't think armor master should be banned. He basically is no worse than colossal fighter. There are worse problems in BW than him.

 

No worse? Goodness' date=' but Colossal Fighter really can be dealt with with a bigger monster than itself. What of Armor Monster?

 

And what of this "there are worse problems" bullshit? This list I created to treat all problems big and small as needing equal jurisdiction.[hr']

Well with the Gadgets you get weak monster that are limited in what they can get. Here you can get anything. Of the targets you have an 1800 atk beatstick that gets weaker BW, a Piercer that can special summon itself, a mini Honest, a shrink on legs that can special summon itself and synchro, and another tuner that when summoned can make a level 6 synchro.

 

That is a lot more versitlity then the Gadgets.

 

Yes, but you're still proceeding at a slowpokish pace. Who cares if you've a massing army of increasingly versatile monsters, if they arrive rather slowly?

[Flame Dragon]

Well with the Gadgets you get weak monster that are limited in what they can get. Here you can get anything. Of the targets you have an 1800 atk beatstick that gets weaker BW' date=' a Piercer that can special summon itself, a mini Honest, a shrink on legs that can special summon itself and synchro, and another tuner that when summoned can make a level 6 synchro.

 

That is a lot more versitlity then the Gadgets.[/i']

 

Yes, but you're still proceeding at a slowpokish pace. Who cares if you've a massing army of increasingly versatile monsters, if they arrive rather slowly?

The thing it their not arriving slowly. With just Shura and Whirlwind you can get 3 monster on your field in a turn so long as your opponent has one.

 

Their is also the fact then when used together they create insane advantage.

[SkillzKill]

Malicious should be @0 or 2.

At 1 he is pointless.

At 3 he is abusable.

 

Edit: Most of the bans are bad :S

 

Until that edit' date=' I actually thought you knew what a ban list should look like. Apparently not. If anything, most of the bans are good, the only questionable ones being One for One, Card Trooper and maybe Royal Oppression.

 

 

All right, this topic is now discussing this banlist:

As Mystery said, the things I'm listing here are just the things I edit from September '09. Don't ask why there isn't a COD-EotE is in here plox.

 

BAN'D

Judgement Dragon

Call of the Haunted

Chimeratech Overdragon

Cyber Twin Dragon

 

LIMIT'D

Monster Reborn

Thousand-Eyes Restrict

Card of Safe Return

Chaos Sorcerer (this is where it must stay.)

Gragonith, Lightsworn Dragon (so that LS can never make a comeback)

Breaker the Magical Warrior

Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier

 

SEMI'D

Plaguespreader Zombie

Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind

Cold Wave

Future Fusion

Cyber Dragon

 

UNLIMIT'D

Solemn Judgement

Reinforcement of the Army

Giant Trunade

 

I missed anything? Tell me, I'll add that up.

 

Terrible list. By simply putting Gragonith on that list, it shows that you know little about this game.

 

You banned Cydra? Burn this list. it fails. And why would you ban 1 piece of exodia? NO SENSE.

 

Cyber Dragon is banworthy' date=' however it is debateable. It is a free 2100ATK beatstick while you control no monsters, meaning it rewards bad play and going second. Banning the head of Exodia is a good idea since lucksack wins are NOT good for this game, and all the other pieces are useless without the head anyway. Even should the head be limited, all the other pieces should be unlimited.

 

nao...

@Makikitsu

Oh sh*t' date=' I limited Morphy?

Typo.

Well, why would I write Metamorphosis into the banned list anyway.

My mind was off.

[/quote']

 

You're a horrible liar. The presence of Cyber Twin Dragon in the Forbidden section makes it clear that you had every intention of legalizing Metamorphosis.

 

Not exactly. His banning of Cyber Twin Dragon most likely meant that he is basing his list off other people's opinion which he himself does not understand.

[CrabHelmet]

Oh' date=' yes, I agree that 3 Machine Duplication is fine while 3 Card Trooper + 3 Machine Duplication is not fine. However, this is hardly grounds for dropping Card Trooper down to 0; there's no reason to put it below 1, where it doesn't work with Machine Duplication at all, and one could even argue that 2 is acceptable.[/i']

 

OHSHI-

 

But let's discuss Trooper's own merits, just to underline how broke Trooper is.

 

Ah, now the argument is that Trooper is broken on its own?

 

A beatstick at your own turn' date=' which morphs into a weakling little draw engine, which also prepares your Grave for future tempests...

 

... ye get mine point?

[/quote']

 

A draw engine? Tabris, a single card that allows a single draw once after a significant delay does not constitute an "engine" under any sensible definition of the word. What it constitutes is a floater, and one with a time delay at that.

 

Take note that you have deemed Elemental Hero Stratos to be permissible at 1 - a card that, being a Level 4 Elemental Hero Warrior, has a ludicrous amount of support; a card that has almost as much ATK as Card Trooper and is able to maintain that ATK during the opponent's turn; a card that doesn't need to wait for the opponent to respond before self-replacing, making it an instant floater rather than an ordinary floater; and a card that allows the user to choose what to tutor, rather than leaving the replacement up to a random draw.

 

What does Card Trooper have over something like that that makes it alone unacceptable as a floater? The mill? We now have an entire archetype of cards with splendid effects that have added mill attached, many of which are splashable, but I don't see you banning, say, Lyla and Ryko.

 

Card Trooper is just a generic floater whose self-mill ability is no longer unique. What about him, with Machine Duplication unable to aid him and Limiter Removal taken out of the picture, do you believe damages the game?

 

I don't think armor master should be banned. He basically is no worse than colossal fighter. There are worse problems in BW than him.

 

No worse? Goodness' date=' but Colossal Fighter really can be dealt with with a bigger monster than itself.

[/quote']

 

Not really. Its effect can Special Summon itself from the Graveyard, so unless the opponent has something that steals stuff from the Graveyard handy, it has de facto immunity to destruction by battle.

 

Well with the Gadgets you get weak monster that are limited in what they can get. Here you can get anything. Of the targets you have an 1800 atk beatstick that gets weaker BW' date=' a Piercer that can special summon itself, a mini Honest, a shrink on legs that can special summon itself and synchro, and another tuner that when summoned can make a level 6 synchro.

 

That is a lot more versitlity then the Gadgets.[/i']

 

Yes, but you're still proceeding at a slowpokish pace. Who cares if you've a massing army of increasingly versatile monsters, if they arrive rather slowly?

 

Because they don't arrive nearly so slowly as you make it sound, especially with their various Special Summon effects? And don't forget that having multiple Black Whirlwinds active turns each monster into a +2 before it even does what it's designed to do.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Enko's list was painful to read.

 

That being said, I'm probably to out of the game to really remember what most of the cards Tabris advocates the banning and limitation of do. I don't wanna just parrot off what everyone else already said, but my few problems with the list have already been mentioned elsewhere in this topic.

 

On a completely unrelated note:

 

Not exactly. His banning of Cyber Twin Dragon most likely meant that he is basing his list off other people's opinion which he himself does not understand.

 

One of the biggest problems in banlist construction is trying to appease the fans of the game. As you continue banlist making however, you'll soon realize that attempting to appease one group of people will inevitably end up pissing off another group of people. The key to banlist making isn't to make the populace happy, but to promote the health of the game.

 

In either case, he's just parroting the ideas of other people on the board who are generally thought to be intelligent posters, namely with the idea of bringing back Metamorphosis or with the idea of banning Cyber Twin Dragon.

[BehindTheMask]

Woo looks like we're up for another teledad meta w/ 3 mali' date=' 3 plague and 3 e-tele.

[/quote']

 

One problem: I killed our father, who art in hell...

 

... mother...

 

... I wanna...

 

Except that Tele-DaD won more games through mass Synchroing with E-Tele, Malicious and Plaguespreader. =/

 

Also, Manticore of Darkness @1 makes little sense. It's not like a person can Mantiloop OTK without CoSR, and doing the Mantiloop without any point is considered stalling.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

No worse? Goodness' date=' but Colossal Fighter really can be dealt with with a bigger monster than itself. What of Armor Monster?[/quote']

No, it can't be dealt with. It has a self reviving effect. Outside of wedge counters, there is no practical difference between the two. And wedge counters are unlikely to ever be able to be used in a duel to any major effect. Wait, excuse me, there IS a practical difference: Armor master is in an attack range that doesn't allow it to take out the large variety of monsters that fall in the 28-30 bracket.

 

Yes' date=' but you're still proceeding at a slowpokish pace. Who cares if you've a massing army of increasingly versatile monsters, if they arrive rather slowly?

[/quote']

You are not "proceeding at a slowpokish pace." Blackwings have self-summoning effects. Your ability to have blackwings on the field is only limited by the number of them in your hand, and Black Whirlwind makes even that restriction easily bypassed.

 

Gadgets: Five turns to get five of them.

Blackwings: One-two turns to get five of them.

 

If you consider these to be equally slow, it is not even worth my time to try to argue with you.

 

 

Other issues: Like I said, teledad works under this format. Your pathetic attempt to say banning DAD fixed this is nothing. Most duels were won without summoning DAD. Even Konami had the brains to realize that deck had more than one problem. Limit Mali.

 

Manticore is at one even though there are no longer any loops with it. I can't think of any valid reason why.

[cerberus21]

You banned Cydra? Burn this list. it fails. And why would you ban 1 piece of exodia? NO SENSE.

 

Cydra is a powerful monster that rewards bad play and can easily turn a game around with his many uses. Banworthy.

Ban one piece of Exodia and the automatic victory can no longer be achieved.

 

Has there been a shift in time? Automatic victory w/ Exodia is back? Oh' date=' wait, thats just you not knowing what you're talking about >.<

[/quote']

 

Since you're not complaining about my suggestion of banning Cyber Dragon, I suppose you agree with it or just don't care, so let's junp straight into the Exodia issue.

You seem to be basing your argument that Exodia isn't banworthy on two things:

1. There are many ways to counteract it.

2. It isn't used in this meta.

However, neither of these arguments can be used in determining how powerful a card is because:

1. Counterability doesn't balance a card.

2. The meta is based on Konami's list, which uses a different set of logic than 3/0.

If you decide to use Konami's list to help decide where a card should be on the ban list, you might as well just follow Konami's judgment, which sometimes (if not usually) isn't that great.

 

In a balanced meta, Exodia could be somewhat easily obtained. the most important argument for the banning of Exodia is because it is a lucksack victory and increases the influence luck has in the game. Monster Reborn was banned at least partly because it could turn the entire game around the second you drew it given the right conditions. The same situation exists with Exodia, except the situation is far more situational and the effect it produces is greater than that of Monster Reborn.

 

That, and, according to Masked Duelist,

Most people I know at locals have Exodia OTK.

Exodia is used.

 

Cydra: mostly the second reason (not caring)' date=' but you did make a good point.

Exodia: See bolded.

I know that Konami's judgement often times is flat-out appallingly stupid. But, given [i']YOUR[/i] reasoning, why not ban 1 part of ALL the OTKs seen in meta, especially those that are used much more frequently than Exodia? Singling out Exodia is pointless.

[Tabris]

You banned Cydra? Burn this list. it fails. And why would you ban 1 piece of exodia? NO SENSE.

 

Cydra is a powerful monster that rewards bad play and can easily turn a game around with his many uses. Banworthy.

Ban one piece of Exodia and the automatic victory can no longer be achieved.

 

Has there been a shift in time? Automatic victory w/ Exodia is back? Oh' date=' wait, thats just you not knowing what you're talking about >.<

[/quote']

 

Since you're not complaining about my suggestion of banning Cyber Dragon, I suppose you agree with it or just don't care, so let's junp straight into the Exodia issue.

You seem to be basing your argument that Exodia isn't banworthy on two things:

1. There are many ways to counteract it.

2. It isn't used in this meta.

However, neither of these arguments can be used in determining how powerful a card is because:

1. Counterability doesn't balance a card.

2. The meta is based on Konami's list, which uses a different set of logic than 3/0.

If you decide to use Konami's list to help decide where a card should be on the ban list, you might as well just follow Konami's judgment, which sometimes (if not usually) isn't that great.

 

In a balanced meta, Exodia could be somewhat easily obtained. the most important argument for the banning of Exodia is because it is a lucksack victory and increases the influence luck has in the game. Monster Reborn was banned at least partly because it could turn the entire game around the second you drew it given the right conditions. The same situation exists with Exodia, except the situation is far more situational and the effect it produces is greater than that of Monster Reborn.

 

That, and, according to Masked Duelist,

Most people I know at locals have Exodia OTK.

Exodia is used.

 

Cydra: mostly the second reason (not caring)' date=' but you did make a good point.

Exodia: See bolded.

I know that Konami's judgement often times is flat-out appallingly stupid. But, given [i']YOUR[/i] reasoning, why not ban 1 part of ALL the OTKs seen in meta, especially those that are used much more frequently than Exodia? Singling out Exodia is pointless.

 

Because most of them actually are muxh more inconsistent - prone to bad hands, etc. - than any of Exodia's hundred thousand faces?

---

Ah, now the argument is that Trooper is broken on its own?

 

Back-up argument, really. But since you destroyed that back-up argument as well, I'll eat my hat and limit or semi-limit Card Trooper, whatever's more acceptable.

 

Not really. Its effect can Special Summon itself from the Graveyard, so unless the opponent has something that steals stuff from the Graveyard handy, it has de facto immunity to destruction by battle.

 

Or something that stops it from Summoning itself, or...

 

... you get mine point. A moot point it is to compare a de facto battle-immune monster to a really battle-immune monster such as Armor Master.

 

(Forgettin' my Latin again...)

 

Because they don't arrive nearly so slowly as you make it sound, especially with their various Special Summon effects? And don't forget that having multiple Black Whirlwinds active turns each monster into a +2 before it even does what it's designed to do.

 

So, OK, mutiple Whirlwind could cause a ton of pain for the opposing player. So... how about Whirlwind at 1? At least it being at 1 = less tendency to swarming.

[Tabris]

Woo looks like we're up for another teledad meta w/ 3 mali' date=' 3 plague and 3 e-tele.

[/quote']

 

One problem: I killed our father, who art in hell...

 

... mother...

 

... I wanna...

 

Except that Tele-DaD won more games through mass Synchroing with E-Tele, Malicious and Plaguespreader. =/

 

Also, Manticore of Darkness @1 makes little sense. It's not like a person can Mantiloop OTK without CoSR, and doing the Mantiloop without any point is considered stalling.

 

Manticore's still at 1? But I edited the list already...

 

Well, in that case, I couldn't really do anything about it except... maybe... Malicious at 2?

[GenzoTheHarpist]

for god's sake semi it.

[cerberus21]

So, what you're saying is, the Exodia OTK is the most reliable OTK, since that's the one you singled out? lolno. Can you say "Ultimate Ancient Gear Golem"?