S/T Overextention

[Curium]

So...decks that don't have access to theme mass removal will be forced to make room for 3x MST giving up space for other useful cards? And decks like Oppression Drain and such don't suffer anything. I think Heavy is fine at one. Yes it can swing the game' date=' but until more balanced mass removal comes along..its needed due to its splashability.

 

Maybe I'm stupid or "doing it wrong" but that's just how I see it.

[/quote']

 

I'm having a thought that perhaps, S/T removals are not a must.

Wouldn't considering the facedown S/Ts your opponent has, and whether or not to go for game or holdback resources, make moves base on what your opponent might has (especially on game 2 and game 3 in a match, where you have basic knowledge on your opponent's deck), requires much more skill than whether or not you draw that limited Heavy Storm in your 40-card-deck and swing for game by mindlessly over-extending your field with Blackwings?

 

Also, sidedeck exists, mass face-up S/T removals exist.

 

There is always a need for S/T removal, things like bottomless, MF and TT and other non-chainable traps are still played .Its not fair to other decks that theme decks have main deck options of mass removal while other dont. I reall dont think a person should be allowed to set 3-4 cards per turn and have notthing to worry about. So while I agree Storm is ban worthy, we need a balanced replacement before it can be banned.

 

Regarding Mirror Force, you can always switch some monsters to DEF mode before attacking.

About Torrential Tribute, simply don't overextend.

Bottomless is a 1-for-1, again, it makes a person consider before summoning more monsters than he need.

 

The irony here is, by keeping Heavy Storm so that people have to hold back on setting S/Ts (with requires no cost to set), people don't have to hold back on over-extending their monster anymore (since they just clear their opponent's backrow and attack for game).

 

S/Ts are really great for mind games, and it definitely brings more joy to the game than seeing who can draw their OTK hands quicker, and mindlessly swarm + attack, in my opinion of course.

 

Amending what you said a little :

I really don't think a person should be allowed to special summon 3-4 monsters in a turn and then have nothing to worry about and attack for game.

 

 

I also have a prob with free swarms, thats why TT is played and T. Rroar but thats a differnt story. The usual opening move in most games are: Summon set 3 cards, at least 1 being a Solemn, Storm forces a player to think, lose my 3 S/T, or pay half to save two. with storm gone, the can set away and pretty mess up most of what you can do. What it comes down to is that this game needs to be balanced a lot more before storm can be banned, if it is only a few deck will be able to survive. (its already like that, it will just become worst)

 

You know why out opinion is so different?

It's probably because I think that letting you opponent set 5 cards is not a problem while you think it is.

 

First of all, I believe most people set 2, not 3 with Storm around...

 

So lets see what cards are commonly set:

I assume my opponent set Mirror Force, Torrential Tribute, Solemn Judgement, Threatening Roar, Bottomless. Pretty much every splashable trap that is commonly played at the moment.

He then summons a random whatever beatstick or what then it's my turn.

 

If I summon a monster right now, it gets bottomless, so what? then I end.

 

Remember that my opponent is out of cards now and is topdecking and ends turn. >_>.

 

so whatever, now, if I summon another monster, TT will actually be a -1 to my opponent so he won't use it. If he solemns then it's down to 4000lp already. So, now, if I don't attack, my opponent can't do anything!

Alright, this is a pretty random example and examples proves nothing so I'll stop here, but you get the point >_>.

 

Not to mention, not only your opponent can set traps to mess with you, YOU can set traps to mess with your opponents.

Answer this : What do you think is the purpose of traps?

1. Something to mess up your opponent's strategy?

2. Something that is there so you need to draw a backrow clear card before OTKing?

 

I would say it's option 1, and that Heavy Storm kills its purpose (non chainable traps to be exact).

[Sleepy]

[spoiler=Resuming:]

So...decks that don't have access to theme mass removal will be forced to make room for 3x MST giving up space for other useful cards? And decks like Oppression Drain and such don't suffer anything. I think Heavy is fine at one. Yes it can swing the game' date=' but until more balanced mass removal comes along..its needed due to its splashability.

 

Maybe I'm stupid or "doing it wrong" but that's just how I see it.

[/quote']

 

I'm having a thought that perhaps, S/T removals are not a must.

Wouldn't considering the facedown S/Ts your opponent has, and whether or not to go for game or holdback resources, make moves base on what your opponent might has (especially on game 2 and game 3 in a match, where you have basic knowledge on your opponent's deck), requires much more skill than whether or not you draw that limited Heavy Storm in your 40-card-deck and swing for game by mindlessly over-extending your field with Blackwings?

 

Also, sidedeck exists, mass face-up S/T removals exist.

 

There is always a need for S/T removal, things like bottomless, MF and TT and other non-chainable traps are still played .Its not fair to other decks that theme decks have main deck options of mass removal while other dont. I reall dont think a person should be allowed to set 3-4 cards per turn and have notthing to worry about. So while I agree Storm is ban worthy, we need a balanced replacement before it can be banned.

 

Regarding Mirror Force, you can always switch some monsters to DEF mode before attacking.

About Torrential Tribute, simply don't overextend.

Bottomless is a 1-for-1, again, it makes a person consider before summoning more monsters than he need.

 

The irony here is, by keeping Heavy Storm so that people have to hold back on setting S/Ts (with requires no cost to set), people don't have to hold back on over-extending their monster anymore (since they just clear their opponent's backrow and attack for game).

 

S/Ts are really great for mind games, and it definitely brings more joy to the game than seeing who can draw their OTK hands quicker, and mindlessly swarm + attack, in my opinion of course.

 

Amending what you said a little :

I really don't think a person should be allowed to special summon 3-4 monsters in a turn and then have nothing to worry about and attack for game.

 

 

I also have a prob with free swarms, thats why TT is played and T. Rroar but thats a differnt story. The usual opening move in most games are: Summon set 3 cards, at least 1 being a Solemn, Storm forces a player to think, lose my 3 S/T, or pay half to save two. with storm gone, the can set away and pretty mess up most of what you can do. What it comes down to is that this game needs to be balanced a lot more before storm can be banned, if it is only a few deck will be able to survive. (its already like that, it will just become worst)

 

 

 

 

-Mystical Space Typhoon

-Breaker the Magical Warrior

-Lyla, The Lightsworn Sorceress

-De-Spell

-Remove Trap

-Malevolent Cathastropy

-Twister

-Crystal Abundance

-Giant Trunade

-XYZ Dragon Cannon

-Arcanite Magician

-Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8

-Kaius the Shadow Monarch

-Kuras The Light Monarch

-The Frost Monarch

-The Wind Monarch

-Dust Tornado

-Sorcerer of Dark Magic

-Dark Paladin

-Uria Lord of Searing Flames

-R - Rightenous Justice

-Elemental Hero Stratos

-Elemental Hero Glow Neos

-Elemental Hero Wild Wingman

-Cyclone Boomerang

-Dark Bribe

-Solemn Judgement

-Magic Jammer

-7 Tools of the Bandit

-Trap Jammer

-Draining Spell

-Seal of the Forbidden Spell

-Polynosis

-Counter Counter

-Spell Shield Type-8

-Gladiador Beast Heraclinos

-Gladiador Beast Gysaurus

-Gladiador Beast Bestiary

-My Body as a Shield

-Stardust Dragon

-Celestia

-that BlackWing Breaker-like guy whose name I forget.

And lots of other cards can be S/T Removal too. But Heavy Storm outclassess most of them and its about time it gets banned, leaving some variety to the game.

Even with Heavy Storm banned, you can see we still are not defenseless and that the post above me is true too.

[CrabHelmet]

So...decks that don't have access to theme mass removal will be forced to make room for 3x MST giving up space for other useful cards?

 

No.

 

They will have the option of doing so if they so desire. They will be forced to do nothing.

 

If they currently rely upon an unsearchable Limited card to save themselves' date=' then their removal plans are already inherently inconsistent.

 

And decks like Oppression Drain and such don't suffer anything.

 

Banning Call of the Haunted didn't make Crystal Beasts suffer. That doesn't mean it should be legal.

 

Making every deck in the game suffer its loss equally is not a necessary requirement to demonstrate banworthiness.

[El Majishan]

I get what every one is saying. But with cards like Delta Crow ect. Other decks need such options IMO...The cards listed only a few are actually playable such as Breaker, Space and Trunade. So until we have a fair balanced replacement that's splasable. Storm is good at 1 IMO

[CrabHelmet]

I get what every one is saying. But with cards like Delta Crow ect. Other decks need such options IMO...The cards listed only a few are actually playable such as Breaker' date=' Space and Trunade. So until we have a fair balanced replacement that's splasable. Storm is good at 1 IMO

[/quote']

 

There are plenty of splashable options on that list; for example, any deck that runs monsters at all is capable of using Mobius. And it really does not make sense to call Breaker splashable but not Arcanite Magician, as the latter is as splashable as the sum of all Spellcasters are splashable.

 

If decks choose not to make use of the available removal, then that is a sacrifice that they have deliberately made.

 

A Lightning Vortex-ized version of Heavy Storm would certainly be a welcome addition to the card pool, but there is no call for keeping Heavy legal until it arrives.

[White Void]

one thing isnt addressed here' date=' and thats the reason that i hate heavy.

 

what i hate about heavy is that it decreases the scope of cards used in this game.

people are deathly afraid of using nonchainable mts. this cuts the amount of cards used in this game nearly into an 1/8th

the traplineups on most decks consist of nothing or just roar/solemn/bribe

thats f***ing disgusting.

it modifies the whole game dynamic for no adequate reason.

[/quote']

 

This is the exact same reason I rather hate Heavy Storm. Several continuous traps and continuous spells are considered bad and absolutely worthless by some players simply because they can be destroyed by Heavy Storm before you can activate or get adequate use out of them.

 

Now this might sound a bit ridiculous but I think Heavy Storm is truly one of the few cards in this game that has actually truly shaped the psyche of players and how they go about building decks, I know that there are several cards I've completely been too paranoid to use in decks simply because "If it gets destroyed by Heavy, I just wasted a slot". Considering that when thinking from a competitive viewpoint in trading card games, every single card needs to be efficient or have some sort of use or it's just a waste of deck space, it makes sense imo that Heavy Storm is in a sense one of the most devastating cards in the game simply for the psychological effect that it has on players.

[Sleepy]

-Mystical Space Typhoon

-Breaker the Magical Warrior

-Lyla' date=' The Lightsworn Sorceress

-De-Spell

-Remove Trap

-Arcanite Magician

-Malevolent Cathastropy

-Twister

-Giant Trunade

-Kaius the Shadow Monarch

-Kuras The Light Monarch

-The Frost Monarch

-The Wind Monarch

-Dust Tornado

-Dark Bribe

-Solemn Judgement

-Magic Jammer

-7 Tools of the Bandit

-Trap Jammer

-Draining Spell

-Seal of the Forbidden Spell

-Counter Counter

-Spell Shield Type-8

-My Body as a Shield

-Stardust Dragon

-Snipe Hunter

[/quote']

 

There ;) took away all non Splashable potential S/T removal and am pretty sure I'm missing some.. I still see about enought to let Heavy Storm be hit by the ban hammer :)

[Curium]

I get what every one is saying. But with cards like Delta Crow ect. Other decks need such options IMO...The cards listed only a few are actually playable such as Breaker' date=' Space and Trunade. So until we have a fair balanced replacement that's splasable. Storm is good at 1 IMO

[/quote']

 

Of course some decks have advantages over another, if not, what's the point of having archetypes?

 

Draw cards is in a pretty similar situation.

Do you suggest Graceful Charity at 1?

 

Also,

Blackwings have 3 Delta Crows! It's unfair to other Decks, lets limit Heavy Storm.

 

Later...

Blackwings have 4 backrow clearers! It's unfair to other Decks that have 1 only, Lets brgin heavy to 2.

 

Later...

Blackwings now have 5 backrow clearers! Lets unlimited heavy to 3, while we're at it, unlimit Raigeki since Batteryman have three of those with pretty easy to satisfy requirements.

 

Decktypes will never be equal. :/

[Sleepy]

I get what every one is saying. But with cards like Delta Crow ect. Other decks need such options IMO...The cards listed only a few are actually playable such as Breaker' date=' Space and Trunade. So until we have a fair balanced replacement that's splasable. Storm is good at 1 IMO

[/quote']

 

Of course some decks have advantages over another, if not, what's the point of having archetypes?

 

Draw cards is in a pretty similar situation.

Do you suggest Graceful Charity at 1?

 

Also,

Blackwings have 3 Delta Crows! It's unfair to other Decks, lets limit Heavy Storm.

 

Later...

Blackwings have 4 backrow clearers! It's unfair to other Decks that have 1 only, Lets brgin heavy to 2.

 

Later...

Blackwings now have 5 backrow clearers! Lets unlimited heavy to 3, while we're at it, unlimit Raigeki since Batteryman have three of those with pretty easy to satisfy requirements.

 

Decktypes will never be equal. :/

 

Agree, mainly because if you lets say, had access to at least 1 unlimited S/T removal for each theme in the game, and then you had the brilliant idea of mixing themes to get a better creative Deck..... that's alot of the same stuff and sounds bad in my opinion... Just imagine Harpie's Feather Duster banned and having a themed version of it for every archtype in the game O_o

 

that must be a reason why not every Deck has one.

[El Majishan]

Hmmm, Fair enough

[RyanAtlus]

What Deck types have to offer contributes to the choice of players. It's also about what you like and dislike.

Do you like to keep it simple? Play Glads.

More logical thinking? Lightsworns.

Swarming and backrow cleaning are fun? Black Feathers.

In response to what Curium and Sleepy said: do we have to kill Frogs for having 3 Mirror Forces? Plants must die because they've got 3 Solemns and 3 Mirror Forces? Didn't think so.

 

Storm should definitely be banned. It would lead to new, creative Decks. And besides, we've got plenty ST destruction that is balanced. Old Decktypes might even see play again.

[CrabHelmet]

Do you like to keep it simple? Play Glads.

More logical thinking? Lightsworns.

 

Eh?

[werewolfjedi]

there is a problem with heavy, being playable no matter what deck or field situation there is when drawn just screws up everything. forcing everything to be chainable or not played is just wrong personaly. there are several cards I know everyone has that they want to play but don`t because of mass removal. people should be able to be more creative, and have the arch-type they play matter more on what they can do normaly.

---

however, i do see the use of generic removal. it allows more freedom on what someone plays.

 

overall what I mean is that creativity needs to be allowed, and right now heavy is getting in the way of it more than it is helping it

[El Majishan]

Do you like to keep it simple? Play Glads.

More logical thinking? Lightsworns.

 

Eh?

 

^ This

[Sleepy]

In response to what Curium and Sleepy said: do we have to kill Frogs for having 3 Mirror Forces? Plants must die because they've got 3 Solemns and 3 Mirror Forces? Didn't think so.

 

My name is not capitalized plz.

I didn't say that having some themed versions for SOME Decks was a problem, I said it was a problem if ALL themes had it because then, it starts getting out of control, and you didn't exactly choose the best themes to back up this >_>

[Flame Dragon]

one thing isnt addressed here' date=' and thats the reason that i hate heavy.

 

what i hate about heavy is that it decreases the scope of cards used in this game.

people are deathly afraid of using nonchainable mts. this cuts the amount of cards used in this game nearly into an 1/8th

the traplineups on most decks consist of nothing or just roar/solemn/bribe

thats f***ing disgusting.

it modifies the whole game dynamic for no adequate reason.

[/quote']

Didn't you already post this? And didn't I already respond? It might just be me.

 

You seem to forget that on a good list MST is at 3. Not only that, but their are tons of other 1 for 1 spell and trap removal around. So in that meta people will still be using limited abouts of nonchainables because, based on what your saying, they still have a lot of spell and trap removal to fear. The only new thing is they can mass set them.

 

On Topic: I'm going to give in and agree that Heavy goes to 0.

[CrabHelmet]

one thing isnt addressed here' date=' and thats the reason that i hate heavy.

 

what i hate about heavy is that it decreases the scope of cards used in this game.

people are deathly afraid of using nonchainable mts. this cuts the amount of cards used in this game nearly into an 1/8th

the traplineups on most decks consist of nothing or just roar/solemn/bribe

thats f***ing disgusting.

it modifies the whole game dynamic for no adequate reason.

[/quote']

Didn't you already post this? And didn't I already respond? It might just be me.

 

You seem to forget that on a good list MST is at 3. Not only that, but their are tons of other 1 for 1 spell and trap removal around. So in that meta people will still be using limited abouts of nonchainables because, based on what your saying, they still have a lot of spell and trap removal to fear. The only new thing is they can mass set them.

 

On Topic: I'm going to give in and agree that Heavy goes to 0.

 

However, being chainable itself, MST can "prenegate" and thus hits chainables as well as non-chainables.

[RyanAtlus]

If Chainability is such an important factor for the use of MST, how come Dust Tornado doesn't see any play?

 

Don't say: "It's a Trap."

[Tickle Me Emo]

Honestly, while Heavy Storm is a bannable card, I gotta say I like it at 1 cause it makes you think more. If there was no Heavy Storm, people would just be throwin down s/ts like it was christmas or something. However with Heavy you need to think turn one "Do I set the Mirror Force or leave it in my hand. Do I set the skill drain and leave the oppression in my hand or set both?"

[werewolfjedi]

You seem to forget that on a good list MST is at 3.

 

I really hate this "on a good list" reasoning crap.

 

what is a good list? you can't answer, since no such list has actually been agreed apoun, this reasoning has no basis.

 

and why would a good list allow mst be at 3? we have other cards that do the job, and a free 1 spell or trap kill that is a quick play is questionable at best to be fair.

 

why do you think is it limited? a 1 for 1 quick play without cost is from my point of view the most versitile and useful kind of removal you could get.

 

look at offerings to the doomed, that is a 1 for 1 quick play monster killer, the reason it doesn't see more play is because it makes you skip your draw. if mst made you skip your draw, then it wouldn't be played much ether would it?

 

give better reasoning than "on a good list"

[El Majishan]

Honestly' date=' while Heavy Storm is a bannable card, I gotta say I like it at 1 cause it makes you think more. If there was no Heavy Storm, people would just be throwin down s/ts like it was christmas or something. However with Heavy you need to think turn one "Do I set the Mirror Force or leave it in my hand. Do I set the skill drain and leave the oppression in my hand or set both?"

[/quote']

 

:) someone shares my point of view.

[Tickle Me Emo]

Honestly' date=' while Heavy Storm is a bannable card, I gotta say I like it at 1 cause it makes you think more. If there was no Heavy Storm, people would just be throwin down s/ts like it was christmas or something. However with Heavy you need to think turn one "Do I set the Mirror Force or leave it in my hand. Do I set the skill drain and leave the oppression in my hand or set both?"

[/quote']

 

:) someone shares my point of view.

 

Dont get me wrong I didnt say its good for the game to be at 1, its better off at 0, but this is one of the broken cards that make the game more fun at 1.

[Von Csent]

Honestly' date=' while Heavy Storm is a bannable card, I gotta say I like it at 1 cause it makes you think more. If there was no Heavy Storm, people would just be throwin down s/ts like it was christmas or something. However with Heavy you need to think turn one "Do I set the Mirror Force or leave it in my hand. Do I set the skill drain and leave the oppression in my hand or set both?"

[/quote']

 

:) someone shares my point of view.

 

Dont get me wrong I didnt say its good for the game to be at 1, its better off at 0, but this is one of the broken cards that make the game more fun at 1.

 

So does Cyber Jar and CED: it is a roulette game. Let's put those at 1 because they are fun.

[El Majishan]

Honestly' date=' while Heavy Storm is a bannable card, I gotta say I like it at 1 cause it makes you think more. If there was no Heavy Storm, people would just be throwin down s/ts like it was christmas or something. However with Heavy you need to think turn one "Do I set the Mirror Force or leave it in my hand. Do I set the skill drain and leave the oppression in my hand or set both?"

[/quote']

 

:) someone shares my point of view.

 

Dont get me wrong I didnt say its good for the game to be at 1, its better off at 0, but this is one of the broken cards that make the game more fun at 1.

 

Yeah, until we get a balanced replacement, like Crab said "A Lightning Vortextized" version of storm, its ok to keep it at 1

[Flame Dragon]

You seem to forget that on a good list MST is at 3.

 

I really hate this "on a good list" reasoning crap.

 

what is a good list? you can't answer' date=' since no such list has actually been agreed apoun, this reasoning has no basis.

[b']A "good list" is a ban list that covers almost all ban worthy cards. Their will always be differences, but in general most of the banned cards are the same. The same goes for limits and unlimited. MST is almost always at 3 on most people's ban list.[/b]

and why would a good list allow mst be at 3? we have other cards that do the job, and a free 1 spell or trap kill that is a quick play is questionable at best to be fair.

We have other monster destruction so does that mean Smashing Ground should be at 1? So should we ban Dust Tornado since it's a free 1 for 1? How about Tornado or Twister, their not as easy to use as the other two, but having 3 cards face down with out Heavy around shouldn't be uncommon. Also 500 points is hardly a cost.

 

why do you think is it limited? a 1 for 1 quick play without cost is from my point of view the most versitile and useful kind of removal you could get.

Again should we limit Smashing, Dust Tornado, Fissure? Their are a lot of 1 for 1 removal. Should we limit all of them?

look at offerings to the doomed, that is a 1 for 1 quick play monster killer, the reason it doesn't see more play is because it makes you skip your draw. if mst made you skip your draw, then it wouldn't be played much ether would it?

Points to Smashing, Fissure and Hammer

give better reasoning than "on a good list"

Give better reasons for why MST should be at 1