[disc] DMoC

[Manjoume Thunder]

 

A lot of threads were made asking if a broken card is ban worthy so I decided to make one too :P

 

 

Most of the things that abuse this card are either banned or limited so where would you place this card in the ban list. Comments like It's banned for a good reason will be ignored. You should provide reasonings.

joke topic

[Sleepy]

I want my Dark Magician Deck to have an opportunity like it used to have. So back at 1.

He is more or less like Endymion, but more splashable due to:

-Trade In food

-Allure food

-Spellcaster/DARK support

-The good effect of Endymion that doesn't need Deck dedication (not alot at least), although it is removed from play, that's not a problem.

-Easy to get Spell Cards kind of effects are:

1) Magician of Faith, which shouldn't really be banned in my opinion.

2) Endymion, which again, requires Deck Dedication.

3) Magical Stone Excavation, wihch is a -2

4) Spell Recovery, which is...... a card.

5) That other spell that did the same as Magical Stone Excavation but you could only discard Spells.

I think that's it, other than this card.

 

Why was it banned?

[Flame Dragon]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

4) Spell Recovery' date=' which is...... a card.

5) That other spell that did the same as Magical Stone Excavation but you could only discard Spells.

I think that's it, other than this card.

[/quote']

 

Spell Recovery isn't a card. 5) would be Spell Reproduction.

 

It could be fair for DMoC to be unbanned if we got rid of problematic Spell Cards for this card's core effect to emulate, but as we still have Heavy Storm, Brain Control, Mind Control, Monster Reborn and the like, this card's better off banned.

 

On a good list, this card would be Limited. If we JUST Limit this without other actions being taken to change the current list, it'd be bad news.

 

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

[Sleepy]

Yeah that can be a big abuse. Although it is still a +0. but still......

I personally used DDM over DDR when it was legal. It just didn't cost me much of an effort to bump into my old Deck.

[Manjoume Thunder]

Reasoning and Monster gate make sweet love with this card ^_^

[Flame Dragon]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

This + DDR + Arms Hole = A 2800 ATK beatstick that can never be killed so long as you have a card in your hand.

[VolTama]

A level 8 DARK Spellcaster has tons of support already. Mix it in with reusing a spell, RFPing monsters, and the fact that it can be speacial summoned. Also, keep in mind that this card owns searchers, Stardust, basicly anything that works in the grave. Given that he's RFP'd when removed from field hardly means anything nowadays since he's DARK.

 

In other words: Versatile = Ban Hammer

[Sleepy]

4) Spell Recovery' date=' which is...... a card.

5) That other spell that did the same as Magical Stone Excavation but you could only discard Spells.

I think that's it, other than this card.

[/quote']

 

Spell Recovery isn't a card. 5) would be Spell Reproduction.

IDK, its that Trap that returns a Spell you just used to your hand.

 

It could be fair for DMoC to be unbanned if we got rid of problematic Spell Cards for this card's core effect to emulate, but as we still have Heavy Storm, Brain Control, Mind Control, Monster Reborn and the like, this card's better off banned.

Yeah, you are right on that one. I mainly abuse Monster Reborn. I wish Konami gets rid of genetic revival, genetic brainwashing cards, and genetic S/T removal. But I still want it ;)

 

On a good list, this card would be Limited. If we JUST Limit this without other actions being taken to change the current list, it'd be bad news.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

This + DDR + Arms Hole = A 2800 ATK beatstick that can never be killed so long as you have a card in your hand.

 

Considering that you have to keep discarding AND have to sacrificing your Normal Summons/Sets to maintain that loop' date=' I'm not seeing that as awfully broken to be quite honest.

 

IDK, its that Trap that returns a Spell you just used to your hand.

 

Oh, that's Spell Reclamation. You have to chain it to a Spell you just activated and target that Spell, so it's fairly fair imo.

[Flame Dragon]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

This + DDR + Arms Hole = A 2800 ATK beatstick that can never be killed so long as you have a card in your hand.

 

Considering that you have to keep discarding AND have to sacrificing your Normal Summons/Sets to maintain that loop' date=' I'm not seeing that as awfully broken to be quite honest.

[/quote']

It's an indestructable 2800 beastick? How is that not broken. The discard cost isn't that big a deal since most decks wouldn't mind dropping a card. The normal summon again isn't that big a deal since your still getting a monster that turn.

[Huntar!]

Reasoning and Monster gate make sweet love with this card ^_^

 

Yeah. I built a deck like that once. xD

 

Sure this card is broken' date=' but its its not [i']too[/i] broken.

[Sleepy]

DMoC saved me against a Traditional Exodia Deck one time. The guy had 4 pieces (I had been counting what he added). He had Witch of the Black Forest face-up in Defense Position, and I attacked with DMoC, he was ready to search when I told him the which was removed xD

inb4coolstorybroh.

 

What does IMO stand for :? ?

 

So far I see this could come back if Konami did the best ban list. I guess I should just forget about it then.

[Huntar!]

In my opinion

[Flame Dragon]

DMoC saved me against a Traditional Exodia Deck one time. The guy had 4 pieces (I had been counting what he added). He had Witch of the Black Forest face-up in Defense Position' date=' and I attacked with DMoC, he was ready to search when I told him the which was removed xD

inb4coolstorybroh.[/i']

 

What does IMO stand for :? ?

 

So far I see this could come back if Konami did the best ban list. I guess I should just forget about it then.

In

My

Opinion

 

On the best ban list this is still banned.

Reasoning and Monster gate make sweet love with this card ^_^

 

Yeah. I built a deck like that once. xD

 

Sure this card is broken' date=' but its its not [i']too broken.

Broken is still broken.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

This + DDR + Arms Hole = A 2800 ATK beatstick that can never be killed so long as you have a card in your hand.

 

Considering that you have to keep discarding AND have to keep sacrificing your Normal Summons/Sets to maintain that loop' date=' I'm not seeing that as awfully broken to be quite honest.

[/quote']

It's an indestructable 2800 beastick? How is that not broken. The discard cost isn't that big a deal since most decks wouldn't mind dropping a card. The normal summon again isn't that big a deal since your still getting a monster that turn.

 

Think about why being indestructable is a good thing. It's because your opponent can't get at your Life Points. This card isn't revived until it's your turn again. Your opponent can use any Spell/Monster destruction, including battle, and then get at your Life Points.

 

The loop's over when one of four conditions are met.

 

-You run out of cards to discard for D.D.R.

-Your opponent negates the Summon of DMoC. (Solemn, Black Horn, etc.)

-Your opponent negates the effect of DMoC, not too hard considering it activates on the field. (Skill Drain, Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror, Divine Wrath, etc.)

-Your opponent summons a monster with over 2800 ATK, in which case your DMoC is useless because if you can't Normal Summon and you have your DMoC taken out every turn, it's only a matter of time for your opponent to chip your LP to 0 with their extra monsters they got from being able to Normal Summon.

 

With Synchro monsters, the 4th is easily accomplished.

 

Putting your Normal Summons on hold (which also doesn't help your Special Summons due to monsters which Special Summon other monsters are a core means of Special Summoning these days what with Summoner Monk, seachers, Rescue Cat, etc), AND basically skipping your Draw Phase is a fair drawback to maintaining a 2800 ATK monster imo, especially considering how possible it is for this maintenance to stop working.

 

It's just a good combo in my eyes.

 

Even if we're to consider that this IS broken, which is debatable, why is it that DMoC's the one that needs a ban?

[Flame Dragon]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

This + DDR + Arms Hole = A 2800 ATK beatstick that can never be killed so long as you have a card in your hand.

 

Considering that you have to keep discarding AND have to keep sacrificing your Normal Summons/Sets to maintain that loop' date=' I'm not seeing that as awfully broken to be quite honest.

[/quote']

It's an indestructable 2800 beastick? How is that not broken. The discard cost isn't that big a deal since most decks wouldn't mind dropping a card. The normal summon again isn't that big a deal since your still getting a monster that turn.

 

Think about why being indestructable is a good thing. It's because your opponent can't get at your Life Points. This card isn't revived until it's your turn again. Your opponent can use any Spell/Monster destruction, including battle, and then get at your Life Points.

Now your opponent just waisted monster emoval on an indestructible monster since you can just get it back next turn. IF your opponent has a bigger monster you'll stop the loop, or just use DMoC effect to get another spell or trap to help you.

The loop's over when one of four conditions are met.

 

-You run out of cards to discard for D.D.R.

Unless you stop drawing the loop isn't dead.

-Your opponent negates the Summon of DMoC. (Solemn, Black Horn, etc.)

This also applies for CED.

-Your opponent negates the effect of DMoC, not too hard considering it activates on the field. (Skill Drain, Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror, Divine Wrath, etc.)

See above

-Your opponent summons a monster with over 2800 ATK, in which case your DMoC is useless because if you can't Normal Summon and you have your DMoC taken out every turn, it's only a matter of time for your opponent to chip your LP to 0 with their extra monsters they got from being able to Normal Summon.

Do you think your opponent is stupid? If you get out a bigger monster they'll just stop the loop and go back to drawing cards. Not only that but they could still use DMoC's effect to get a different card that can destroy your monster.

 

With Synchro monsters, the 4th is easily accomplished.

 

Putting your Normal Summons on hold (which also doesn't help your Special Summons due to monsters which Special Summon other monsters are a core means of Special Summoning these days what with Summoner Monk, seachers, Rescue Cat, etc), AND basically skipping your Draw Phase is a fair drawback to maintaining a 2800 ATK monster imo, especially considering how possible it is for this maintenance to stop working.

Their are still things like Mezuk and Malicious that special summon from the grave, and wth the dropping effect of DDR they are easy to get in the grave. Also your making it sound like your opponent will ALWAYS have a counter measure ready. That is inpossible and under that logic, again, CED, and hell every card, should be un banned. Also getting out a monster with over 2800 ATK is kind of hard since most commonly used ones have nly that much.

 

 

Even if we're to consider that this IS broken, which is debatable, why is it that DMoC's the one that needs a ban?

The simple reason is that other two bring more to the game. Side from that DMoC isn't limited to this alone. Even with other broken spells gone he can let you abuse many other spells such as SoWL.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

One of the reason that I can think of are fun loops with DDR.

 

Describe how they work.

This + DDR + Arms Hole = A 2800 ATK beatstick that can never be killed so long as you have a card in your hand.

 

Considering that you have to keep discarding AND have to keep sacrificing your Normal Summons/Sets to maintain that loop' date=' I'm not seeing that as awfully broken to be quite honest.

[/quote']

It's an indestructable 2800 beastick? How is that not broken. The discard cost isn't that big a deal since most decks wouldn't mind dropping a card. The normal summon again isn't that big a deal since your still getting a monster that turn.

 

Think about why being indestructable is a good thing. It's because your opponent can't get at your Life Points. This card isn't revived until it's your turn again. Your opponent can use any Spell/Monster destruction, including battle, and then get at your Life Points.

Now your opponent just wasted monster removal on an indestructible monster since you can just get it back next turn. IF your opponent has a bigger monster you'll stop the loop, or just use DMoC effect to get another spell or trap to help you.

 

Not necessarily, eventually they'll be able to get a significant amount of damage in. Doesn't have to be monster removal either.

 

The loop's over when one of four conditions are met.

 

-You run out of cards to discard for D.D.R.

Unless you stop drawing the loop isn't dead.

It can happen with cards like Reckless. Or if you for some reason NEED to Set that last card(s).

-Your opponent negates the Summon of DMoC. (Solemn, Black Horn, etc.)

This also applies for CED.

CED causes more damage when it DOES work and doesn't have the same kind of drawbacks.

-Your opponent negates the effect of DMoC, not too hard considering it activates on the field. (Skill Drain, Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror, Divine Wrath, etc.)

See aboveSee above

-Your opponent summons a monster with over 2800 ATK, in which case your DMoC is useless because if you can't Normal Summon and you have your DMoC taken out every turn, it's only a matter of time for your opponent to chip your LP to 0 with their extra monsters they got from being able to Normal Summon.

Do you think your opponent is stupid? If you get out a bigger monster they'll just stop the loop and go back to drawing cards. Not only that but they could still use DMoC's effect to get a different card that can destroy your monster.

That's aside from the point of this entire convo we've been having, the loop and how broken it's supposed to be. "OH BUT YOUR OPPONENT CAN JUST STOP THE LOOP" isn't a great argument if we're to establish that the loop's broken.

 

 

With Synchro monsters, the 4th is easily accomplished.

 

Putting your Normal Summons on hold (which also doesn't help your Special Summons due to monsters which Special Summon other monsters are a core means of Special Summoning these days what with Summoner Monk, seachers, Rescue Cat, etc), AND basically skipping your Draw Phase is a fair drawback to maintaining a 2800 ATK monster imo, especially considering how possible it is for this maintenance to stop working.

Their are still things like Mezuk and Malicious that special summon from the grave, and wth the dropping effect of DDR they are easy to get in the grave. Also your making it sound like your opponent will ALWAYS have a counter measure ready. That is inpossible and under that logic, again, CED, and hell every card, should be un banned. Also getting out a monster with over 2800 ATK is kind of hard since most commonly used ones have nly that much.

 

Oh hey I heard these cool new cards were released, apparently they're called Synchro monsters or something.

 

Even if we're to consider that this IS broken, which is debatable, why is it that DMoC's the one that needs a ban?

The simple reason is that other two bring more to the game. Side from that DMoC isn't limited to this alone. Even with other broken spells gone he can let you abuse many other spells such as SoWL.

 

What's the problem with an extra use of SoRL? So far, the only argument you've given me for DMoC's being broken is the loop. How does it contribute less to the game than D.D.R.?

 

Underlines yo.

[CrabHelmet]

The loop is the least of this guy's problems.

 

Seriously.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

The loop is the least of this guy's problems.

 

Seriously.

 

Care to elaborate?

[Tickle Me Emo]

The fact that DMoC gives you back any spell in your graveyard to your hand and is a 2800 beatstick that RFPs the opponents monsters in a deadly combo. Whats worse is that when it dies it is RFPed so the opponent cant use your DMoC. even with cards like Monster Reborn banned, DMoC is still nothing but plus.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

The fact that DMoC gives you back any spell in your graveyard to your hand and is a 2800 beatstick that RFPs the opponents monsters in a deadly combo. Whats worse is that when it dies it is RFPed so the opponent cant use your DMoC. even with cards like Monster Reborn banned' date=' DMoC is still nothing but plus.

[/quote']

 

Keep in mind that it's still fairly difficult to Summon and that Monster Reborn shouldn't be taken into consideration when considering changing the list, because Monster Reborn's a Staple for Forbidden.

 

Also take into consideration that DMoC's relatively difficult to Summon. That's its drawback.

[Tickle Me Emo]

The fact that DMoC gives you back any spell in your graveyard to your hand and is a 2800 beatstick that RFPs the opponents monsters in a deadly combo. Whats worse is that when it dies it is RFPed so the opponent cant use your DMoC. even with cards like Monster Reborn banned' date=' DMoC is still nothing but plus.

[/quote']

 

Keep in mind that it's still fairly difficult to Summon and that Monster Reborn shouldn't be taken into consideration when considering changing the list, because Monster Reborn's a Staple for Forbidden.

 

Also take into consideration that DMoC's relatively difficult to Summon. That's its drawback.

 

hmm lets test that...

 

RFP Mezuki, Special summon Zombie Master. Activate the effect, special summon Goblin Zombie, tribute both for DMoC, get a search and reuse a spell.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

The fact that DMoC gives you back any spell in your graveyard to your hand and is a 2800 beatstick that RFPs the opponents monsters in a deadly combo. Whats worse is that when it dies it is RFPed so the opponent cant use your DMoC. even with cards like Monster Reborn banned' date=' DMoC is still nothing but plus.

[/quote']

 

Keep in mind that it's still fairly difficult to Summon and that Monster Reborn shouldn't be taken into consideration when considering changing the list, because Monster Reborn's a Staple for Forbidden.

 

Also take into consideration that DMoC's relatively difficult to Summon. That's its drawback.

 

hmm lets test that...

 

RFP Mezuki, Special summon Zombie Master. Activate the effect, special summon Goblin Zombie, tribute both for DMoC, get a search and reuse a spell.

 

What's so much worse about this than a Monarch?

[CrabHelmet]

The loop is the least of this guy's problems.

 

Seriously.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

A 2800 ATK monster that turns draws into regenerations is certainly a force to be reckoned with, but it's hardly the biggest problem here - especially now that the advent of Synchro Monsters gives all decks at least the option of pulling out RDA or something similar.

 

The problem is more general than the loop: the balanced RFP recursion introduced by PTDN - D.D.R.'s and Escapes - simply makes it far too easy to recycle DMoC and get his effect to retrieve Spells even if the loop itself were ignored. Before PTDN, one could argue that DMoC took just enough effort to re-use - RFP recursion pretty much boiled down to "stuff that's banworthy on its own" (Dimension Fusion and RFTDD) and "stuff that isn't terribly convenient to use" (D.D.M.) - that one could at least try to argue that the cost to use justified the power of the effect, but now that Special Summoning DARK monsters of any size that have been removed from play is so easy, there simply isn't any excuse for keeping DMoC around. The loop is only one way to take advantage of his power, and isn't even the best way.