Naruto

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

This is becoming a philosophical debate over good vs evil. Very rarely does one think of himself/herself as the bad guy.

 

Naruto has been full of this kind of enemy since the beginning. Itachi was a scumbag, and then he became a hero. Nagato destroyed Konoha and killed Jiraiya, but now he's considered a good guy in death.

[Kakashi Hatake]

The thing is Obito is subjecting "EVERYONE" for "HIS" pain.

 

The shinobi alliance are trying to stop "HIM"....

 

actually...this is turning to a Debate, so thread is up.

 

http://forum.yugiohc...1290-existance/

There is no debate here. To you, Obito is evil I'm not arguing you that point. To Obito, he isn't It doesn't matter what I say, you will still think that Obito is evil. No matter what you say, i will still think Obito isn't that bad. There is no argument nor debate on that, simply the culminated point that you think he's bad and I understand.

 

it was actually a joke lol.

Yeah, I figured it was but I wanted to know on the off chance that it wasn't.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

This is becoming a philosophical debate over good vs evil. Very rarely does one think of himself/herself as the bad guy.

 

We always see the "good" in people after they've died...even from some of the people in WWII...

 

@Kakashi - I suppose you're right. But the opposition of Obito doing all this due to his reasons as a justifiable cause for doing what he is doing...so it's STILL debatable.

[Kakashi Hatake]

We always see the "good" in people after they've died...even from some of the people in WWII...

 

@Kakashi - I suppose you're right. But the opposition of Obito doing all this due to his reasons as a justifiable cause for doing what he is doing...so it's STILL debatable.

WOULD YOU SHUT UP AND LET ME AGREE WITH YOU ALREADY MY GOD ITS LIKE YOURE ASKING FOR A DEBATE

 

EDIT:

D*mnit, you liked this post.

[Merci]

Whether dreaming or facing reality, it's all a matter of opinion. To be honest, I actually understand Obito's and Madara's desires and agree with them, I would've joined them if I could and help cast the Moon's Eye Plan. But in the end....there's no real answer, is there?

 

Anyway, this chapter was amazing. Simply amazing. Filled in the plotholes nicely. And yeah, the whole Black Zetsu thing wasn't a surprise. Actually, somebody already guessed it.

[Mr.WHAM]

This is becoming a philosophical debate over good vs evil. Very rarely does one think of himself/herself as the bad guy.

 

Naruto has been full of this kind of enemy since the beginning. Itachi was a scumbag, and then he became a hero. Nagato destroyed Konoha and killed Jiraiya, but now he's considered a good guy in death.

 

This and the last debate bring up this question to me: Why are psychologically damaged ninjas, i.e. Itachi, Ororchimaru, Pein, Madara, etc. always the ones in the cannon storylines to obtain so much power in order to bend the world to their will? Why do these ninjas, who seem to have friends for the most part, shut themselves off from the world so entirely and unable to cope?

Honestly, it sounds like the world of Naruto could use some therapists. OR some justus that could transfer over feelings, which ironically might be the justu that helps people understand one another. Who knows.

[Tentacruel]

Taking a trip from reality to a permanent dream state is not denying reality?

 

It is, and they are completely aware of that. They're essentially giving the middle finger to reality, and they know it.

[Legend Zero]

At least its not as bad as C was. I'm sure most of us remember how that went.

[Phantom Roxas]

At least its not as bad as C was. I'm sure most of us remember how that went.

 

I honestly do not know if you mean the character or the anime. If you mean the latter, then that was awesome despite being heartbreaking.

[Legend Zero]

I honestly do not know if you mean the character or the anime. If you mean the latter, then that was awesome despite being heartbreaking.

The anime itself was great, it was how the motivations for the protag and antag could've switched and it wouldn't have mattered.

[Phantom Roxas]

I think that's a good way to build a conflict between the protagonist and the antagonist, as either side could be right or wrong, whereas here we know that what Madara and Obito are doing is wrong while Naruto is clearly fighting to save the world in a way that is unquestionably good.

[Fusion X. Denver]

I think that's a good way to build a conflict between the protagonist and the antagonist, as either side could be right or wrong, whereas here we know that what Madara and Obito are doing is wrong while Naruto is clearly fighting to save the world in a way that is unquestionably good.

 

Is it though?

Say they succeeded.

The world would no longer have any conflict. There'd be peace and everyone could live in the world they want to.

Of course it involves dragging several unwilling people into this dream-state.

>That moment when you remember Code Geass tackled this issue.

 

I agree that they're wrong and that people shouldn't use this as an escape from reality. Life's about overcoming strife, being there for one another, and becoming better, stronger people from these experiences. Though I would say their plan's a lot more gray compared to the plans of other villains.

[Phantom Roxas]

Yeah, that I can agree with. I thinks it's more of an ends justifying the means, and a easy way to counter their goal would be that it's not really living if it's all just a dream.

[Merci]

What's the difference between living a dream and living reality? Once you're inside the dream, you'll realize that there's really no difference. The mind will treat them both the same. You protest now, but think back to the functions of a human. They will still carry on into the dream if you want, and if you like your life the way it is, that's the way it will carry onto.

 

The Moon's Eye Plan, Tobi and Madara's plan, it allows every single human on the planet to have an opportunity at happiness. Now compare this to the reality; how many people die in vain, starve to death, suffer as they hold onto false hopes in the world, abandoned by corrupt individuals who don't even know they exist? In case you're wondering, the total amount of lives amount to over billions. In reality, this is unachievable, it's an economical problem; that there's not enough resources in this world to satisfy everyone, and we know it. But everyone knows that imagination is limitless, right? Therefore, within a dream world, not only will our minds be unable to distinguish it from the reality, but everything will be perfect.

 

This is hardly black and white at all. We all know that in the end, the Shinobi will win, Tobi and Madara will be defeated, and peace will come...but suffering will still exist. Pain himself pointed that out to Naruto, who's supposedly some Rikudo incarnate. But even the Rikudo himself never managed to bring eternal peace over the world...something a dream is more than capable of.

 

Say that we have a wife, and she's pregnant. In the reality, though everyone was excited and happy, she ended up dying in childbirth...giving birth to something so weak it died within that same hour. Just an example. Hopes crushed, reality hurts, this wouldn't happen in a dream. In a dream, everything will go safely and she'll have given birth to a beautiful child.

 

Say that someone is born with a mental problem. He can only feel happiness in murder, not because he's insane, but because he was born that way. Such a person cannot live n reality because everyone will condemn him, the actions that define him will make others call him a monster...and he IS a monster. But that's his daily life. He will never be happy because what we define as 'pure evil' is 'normal' for him, and when he tries to strive for his 'normal', we will have to stop him because we are 'good'. The only way to relieve him of his sufferings would be for him to die. But that wouldn't be so in a dream. In a dream, he can happily kill as many as he wants and nobody will protest.

 

This is really a complete solution to humanity. Although it's true that we'll soon cease to exist in reality, in our dream we will carry on and live our life. The imagination will continue to grow, and nobody will ever be aware of it.

A scientist discovers extraterrestrial life and successfully builds a machine to reach their home planet hundreds of light-years away.

A shy girl manages to successfully ask her crush out on a date, which soon moves on into a perfect relationship.

An athlete beats multiple world records and wins competitions, but still feels the heat of competition from imaginary opponents who are able to match him/her.

A poor child becomes a billionaire and manages to feed his/her whole country, especially the family, becoming famous all over the globe.

A lonely teenage guy captures the hearts of all the girls on the planet, who now obey his every command.

An insane man can successfully prove the world wrong and stop the ancient conspiracy before it conquers the world, branding him a hero.

A religious fanatic successfully unites the world under their own religion, making them all believe it.

 

From all categories, every single person will achieve what they've been wanting for a long time. The only flaw is that in reality, there will be no more new consciousnesses, no more new children, but nobody will ever notice because these children will be born and exist and grow up perfectly in their dreams.

 

Life is about overcoming strife, yes, but look into your heart. You all know you're just afraid that if you ever achieve your goal after striving so hard, you will fall. Hard. In a dream, that will never happen. If you think about it logically, seriously, what's the problem here?

 

Everyone. Absolutely everyone will be happy. In this world, in reality, there are millions upon millions who suffer so bad, and nobody can help them. The economical problem. The problem that this planet has limited resources, and is unable to fulfill mankind's unlimited wants, unable to fully satisfy humanity. In a dream, all that will be ignored. And it's not even status quo. If they don't like their current dreamland world, then they can just make it change into something else. It's simple, easy.

 

It's not like pulling everyone into an eternal happy-happy heaven grassland. There are bound to be people who hate it, get bored at it, pull at the grass or try to eat it, or try to murder the other people who were pulled in. It's pulling people into themselves.

 

But anyway, it's not healthy to agree with me. if something like what Obito and Madara are doing is possible in actual reality, then it should be done for the sake of everyone. But this is only a manga, only a Naruto manga based on shinobi, and although it's possible there, we all know Kishimoto will never let that happen and prevent the Moon's Eye Plan from coming to fruition.

 

It's impossible to deny reality in this true reality, so all we can do is strive against sadness and conquer our fears. But if it were possible, if that Moon's Eye Plan was actually possible in this true reality, then it should be done. But it isn't. It's more comfortable for mankind to believe that reality is better than dreams, because living in dreams is impossible, and it's unhealthy to delude oneself.

 

..................................jeez. How did I end up joining this argument? But please, you guys see my logic, right?

 

Sorry for the long post. I can understand if you were too lazy to read it all. I just felt annoyed by all these crude statements made without thought.

[Fusion X. Denver]

"A world without change...how stagnant. You could hardly call it life, the same as a world of memories. Just a world that is closed and completed. That's a place I wouldn't want to live in.

 

Forcing your good intentions on others is no different from an evil act."

 

Despite what I said, I don't think humanity should take that option if it were made available to them. The very definition of humanity and our existence is progress. Crude, brainless organisms evolving into intellectual minds shaping the world, technologies evolving to better our learning and understanding of the universe and who we are, life is under constant change building towards tomorrow. Our constant goal is advancement: making the world a better place and guiding the generations succeeding us so we can leave our mark, so we can prove we existed.

I've never understood why history has blamed children for the sins of their parents. For those yet to be born, it's unethical to deny them a chance at making their mark and their chance at shaping the world and letting them grow as individuals.

 

I could better understand Obito and Madara if they only included themselves in their plan, but their justification for mystifying humanity with the Moon's Eye Plan is made of nothing but self-serving excuses.

Life without change can't really be called life. It's only an experience.

[Kakashi Hatake]

Right now, all we're arguing is philosophy. Biased opinion and philosophy. xD

[Strider Tigerwolf]

Right now, all we're arguing is philosophy. Biased opinion and philosophy. xD

 

So I was right in calling this "debatable"?

[Kakashi Hatake]

So I was right in calling this "debatable"?

A debate focuses on what is or is not the factual case. "Philosophy" is just a fancy word for "opinion" and nobody goes into a debate with the intention of changing their opinion so there's no point.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

Just making sure. Anyways, I'm still anxious for Kakashi's side of the story. I want to hear the things Rin had to say and why things ended that way :o

[Kakashi Hatake]

Just making sure. Anyways, I'm still anxious for Kakashi's side of the story. I want to hear the things Rin had to say and why things ended that way :o

Definately. I'm usually busy all day so I don't have to think about it but on days like this where I can;t go to school and have nothing else to do, it just sits on my mind. "What if" this and "maybe it was" that. xD

[Strider Tigerwolf]

Well I'm still on the whole theory that Rin had info on either village and Kakashi was forced to kill her to keep her secrets from being exploited. If it turns out like that I can pat Kakashi on the back because he tried desperately to keep his promise but at the compromise of a friend.

[Kakashi Hatake]

Well I'm still on the whole theory that Rin had info on either village and Kakashi was forced to kill her to keep her secrets from being exploited. If it turns out like that I can pat Kakashi on the back because he tried desperately to keep his promise but at the compromise of a friend.

But that would be too easy to explain away. Dx

[Lt. Colonel Remo]

...isn't an existence wherein everybody is happy that lasts for eternity simply Heaven/Valhalla etc.?

 

 

So then isn't it true that the only people opposed to this literal Heaven are the only people who understand that it's an illusion, i.e they aren't opposed to the philosophy, they just don't want to be aware that the happiness they will have was "false"?

 

My only question is, what happens to their physical bodies after the jutsu is activated? Do they all just fall down and live for a couple more days until their bodies just die due to lack of water? So far, Tsukiyomi has been shown to be purely mental, and that for the person under it, their bodies remain physical and can suffer (at least in theory) physical trauma. So wouldn't Madara's dream ultimately result in the world's craziest mass (murder -)suicide?

 

I'm also getting this feeling that Sasuke might side with Tobito and Madara simply because it would be the easiest way to bring back his loved ones (as opposed to revenge, basically he would have a pseudo-epiphany where he learns that revenge is not the answer and joins Madara to make things real for him).

 

I'm also feeling that this might take an FMA route where the Big Bad wins in the end....or so we thought, and that Orochimaru might supply us with a counter-genjutsu similar to Hohenheim. And then Orochmaru will become a fan favorite.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

So wouldn't Madara's dream ultimately result in the world's craziest mass (murder -)suicide?

 

Lol XD That is so true!

 

I'm also getting this feeling that Sasuke might side with Tobito and Madara simply because it would be the easiest way to bring back his loved ones (as opposed to revenge, basically he would have a pseudo-epiphany where he learns that revenge is not the answer and joins Madara to make things real for him).

 

It would figure...but what if he sided with Naruto? O_o that'd be a mindfuck moment right there.

 

I'm also feeling that this might take an FMA route where the Big Bad wins in the end....or so we thought, and that Orochimaru might supply us with a counter-genjutsu similar to Hohenheim. And then Orochmaru will become a fan favorite.

 

*flips table and leaves*

[Kakashi Hatake]

I'm hoping Sasuke does side with Naruto in the end. :I It'd be like one of those nostalgia things.