Phantom Roxas Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 ^Done what, exactly? Well, so all the Fullbrings were evil, except for Riruka. The fact that Riruka will probably turn good annoys me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 ^Done what, exactly?Who did Ichigo kill canonically? No one, save Ulqui, but you can't blame him, that was his hollow. The only things ichigo has killed are hollows. Despite everything, Kubo has kept some "innocence" to Ichigo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fusion X. Denver Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 ^I still dgi@Roxas-Yeah that also annoys me >_>Hopefully next chapter will show new skills from the Soul Society peeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Βyakuya Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Another darn cliffhanger. So this is everyone with their fullbring power enhanced. So it looks like an all out battle with everyone next chapter. I really want to see Rukia's bankai if she does have one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Who did Ichigo kill canonically? No one, save Ulqui, but you can't blame him, that was his hollow. The only things ichigo has killed are hollows. Despite everything, Kubo has kept some "innocence" to Ichigo. You do know that the hollows are the main enemies of this story, right? Everything from the Espada down to Acidwire have been Hollows. It only makes sense that Ichigo's killing them. Him killing anything else wouldn't be character development, it would be making him a villain. Ichigo kills the bad guys, Harry doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 You do know that the hollows are the main enemies of this story, right? Everything from the Espada down to Acidwire have been Hollows. It only makes sense that Ichigo's killing them. Him killing anything else wouldn't be character development, it would be making him a villain. Ichigo kills the bad guys, Harry doesn't. Ichigo didn't kill Don Panini (Forget his real name)Ichigo didn't kill Grimmjow Ichigo didn't kill Ulquiorra, himselfIchigo didn't kill Aizen, granted he had intent to, until Aizen was just lonely. He didn't kill anything, hollow or not, if it looked human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 So him killing things that were once human but don't look like that anymore don't count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 So him killing things that were once human but don't look like that anymore don't count?Hollows are monsters that are going to eat their way out of a missing heart. They have sentience, but it's shown that those short of a vasto lordes usually don't have any set of morals, and pretty much just live as demonic things. Furthermore, when he kills said monsters, he heals them, and sends them to pass on. He's doing a good thing an easing Their pain. But he didn't kill the humanoid ones, thus damning their souls. So that was, in fact, cold hearted of him, whether it was meant to be like that, or not. Ironically, the only character he would actually kill, an not simply defeat, was Aizen, who, once he killed him, would be dead for good. So while Kubo keeps some "innocence" about Ichio, he made him a giant douche. And it's not the same with Ichigo not killing anyone as with Naruto, Luffy, and Tsuna. Ichigo is a troubled young man who blatantly hates others in the series, and goes "Screw you". Ulquiorra died via ceroGrimmjow via SpoonyPanini via exequias. Ulquiorra told him to fight, he said no. Same with Grimmjow. Panini scared him off, but only because Ichigo refused to go for the kill. I don't get why someone like Ichigo doesn't kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Ichigo damn sure killed Ulquiorra. His body was reduced to dust as a result of Ichigo's Cero. What difference does it make if it looks human or not? It's still a human soul, an existence that he ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Ichigo damn sure killed Ulquiorra. His body was reduced to dust as a result of Ichigo's Cero. What difference does it make if it looks human or not? It's still a human soul, an existence that he ends.The criteria is death by Zanpakuto, not death by cero. Because he is HEALING that soul, and making it pass on, but he didn't pass on others. Killing the hollows is, whether at his core or not, is a good thing for everyone. But Ichigo didn't kill a Shinigami or an Arrancar. Not one. We have this darker main who wont kill an enemy to keep some semblance of "innocence"? And to make it better, not killing said Arrancar is a pretty douchey move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 So it only counts if he's killing them with his sword? Because it heals them? How about killing him without the sword, destroying the soul utterly in the process? How's that for a darker main for ya? Not to mention that Ulquiorra, as an Espada, is a merging of hundreds if not thousands of souls. Ichigo basically committed genocide right on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 So it only counts if he's killing them with his sword? Because it heals them? How about killing him without the sword, destroying the soul utterly in the process? How's that for a darker main for ya? Not to mention that Ulquiorra, as an Espada, is a merging of hundreds if not thousands of souls. Ichigo basically committed genocide right on the spot.That's my point. He's constantly shifting between "I'm so innocent, I kill no Humans/Shinigami/Espada" and "Yeah, screw you, you Espada can go die without being killed by a Zanpakutou, thus beign forever oblterated." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakashi Hatake Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 That's my point. He's constantly shifting between "I'm so innocent, I kill no Humans/Shinigami/Espada" and "Yeah, screw you, you Espada can go die without being killed by a Zanpakutou, thus beign forever oblterated."He also killed a sinner or two. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Origins Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 Just caught up by briefly reading the wiki page (I stopped when Aizen was sealed away). ICHIGO GOT HIS POWERS BACK??? Slightly angry at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 That's my point. He's constantly shifting between "I'm so innocent, I kill no Humans/Shinigami/Espada" and "Yeah, screw you, you Espada can go die without being killed by a Zanpakutou, thus beign forever oblterated." That wasn't your point at all. Your point was that Ichigo was innocent because he doesn't kill anyone. We pointed out that he has, as a matter of fact, killed several people. Then, you changed the criteria for killing. We pointed out that he has done far worse things that don't fit your criteria. Then we got here, with you changing your point again. The validity of your argument is going down the drain, going down the drain, going down the drain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 That wasn't your point at all. Your point was that Ichigo was innocent because he doesn't kill anyone. We pointed out that he has, as a matter of fact, killed several people. Then, you changed the criteria for killing. We pointed out that he has done far worse things that don't fit your criteria. Then we got here, with you changing your point again. The validity of your argument is going down the drain, going down the drain, going down the drain...I said, FROM THE START, the issue was Kubo trying to maintain this innocence he doesn't have. He HASN'T killed anyone, and you pointed out no such thing. I never changed the criteria for killing. From the beginning, I said killing Hollows, not Arrancar, is different You're not reading what I'm saying at all =/ I'll admit between Post 1 and 2 it changed, but that was as I realized what was truly irking me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Who did Ichigo kill canonically? No one, save Ulqui, but you can't blame him, that was his hollow.The criteria is death by Zanpakuto, not death by cero. Sounds like a pretty straight-up criteria change to me. "Killing", to me, doesn't equal "death by zanpakuto". Ichigo killed Ulquiorra, in a particularly brutal fashion. He did also kill that first Hollow that broke down their house, as well as many other hollows. Him not killing things that look human is a GOOD THING. THOSE ARE THE GOOD GUYS. The times he was up against some human-looking enemy and didn't kill them was because they freaking curbstomped him, not because he wanted to spare them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 Sounds like a pretty straight-up criteria change to me. "Killing", to me, doesn't equal "death by zanpakuto". Ichigo killed Ulquiorra, in a particularly brutal fashion. He did also kill that first Hollow that broke down their house, as well as many other hollows. Him not killing things that look human is a GOOD THING. THOSE ARE THE GOOD GUYS. The times he was up against some human-looking enemy and didn't kill them was because they freaking curbstomped him, not because he wanted to spare them.A. I was saying to PASS ON the criteria is death by Zanpakuto, not cero. I will admit, looking back, I didn't make that clear.B. Ichigo didn't kill him, Hichigo did, thus "absolving" Ichigo of guilt. Ichigo wasn't conscious, it's an obvious attempt to make him NOT kill Ullquiorra. Hollows don't count. It's like killing an animal that has a level of mad sentience to it. He didn't kill Grimmjow when they were equal, and didn't kill Dordoni. A dying Ulquiorra wanted to end the battle, and he refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Ichigo and Hichigo are the same person. The character you think of as Hichigo is merely a manifestation of Ichigo's hollow powers, and not a person in itself. Ichigo was very conscious when he killed Ulquiorra. Are you sure that Grimmjow is alive? Who's to say that he didn't die from his wounds? Don't go beyond the scope of what we know. He could be alive, but he could also be dead. Therefore, don't use him in your argument. I'm going to give you Dordonii, but again that wasn't because he wanted to "spare" him; he was a nuisance, so he made him incapable of fighting, then left him to die at the hands of the Exequias. There's more than one way to be cruel than to kill people - worse ways, even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakashi Hatake Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Ichigo and Hichigo are the same person. The character you think of as Hichigo is merely a manifestation of Ichigo's hollow powers, and not a person in itself. Ichigo was very conscious when he killed Ulquiorra. After Ulquiorra "killed" Ichigo, he lost control of his body to Hichigo, so even though Ulqiuorra's defeat came by Ichigo's hands, Ichigo wasn't "conscious" of his actions. It's all in how you look at it. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbra Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 After Ulquiorra "killed" Ichigo, he lost control of his body to Hichigo, so even though Ulqiuorra's defeat came by Ichigo's hands, Ichigo wasn't "conscious" of his actions. It's all in how you look at it. :/ The fact remains that Ichigo and Hichigo are the same person. It was always his intent to kill Ulquiorra; when he was "killed", he tapped further into his Hollow powers than ever before, which allowed him to regenerate and then Cero his opponent. He went entirely by instinct, just as a Hollow would. It is still Ichigo, by all means, he just switched to a mode where he was capable of killing someone. To say that he's innocent because he only kills someone when he intends to is like saying Kenpachi's really a pacifist, he just kills people when he has a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tentacruel Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 I agree with Umbra, Ichigo isn't by any means innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakashi Hatake Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 The fact remains that Ichigo and Hichigo are the same person. It was always his intent to kill Ulquiorra; when he was "killed", he tapped further into his Hollow powers than ever before, which allowed him to regenerate and then Cero his opponent. He went entirely by instinct, just as a Hollow would. It is still Ichigo, by all means, he just switched to a mode where he was capable of killing someone. To say that he's innocent because he only kills someone when he intends to is like saying Kenpachi's really a pacifist, he just kills people when he has a weapon.Try walking up to him and saying that. XD I agree with Umbra, Ichigo isn't by any means innocent.Definitely not, but he isn't going to Hell by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Ichigo and Hichigo are the same person. The character you think of as Hichigo is merely a manifestation of Ichigo's hollow powers, and not a person in itself. Ichigo was very conscious when he killed Ulquiorra. Are you sure that Grimmjow is alive? Who's to say that he didn't die from his wounds? Don't go beyond the scope of what we know. He could be alive, but he could also be dead. Therefore, don't use him in your argument. I'm going to give you Dordonii, but again that wasn't because he wanted to "spare" him; he was a nuisance, so he made him incapable of fighting, then left him to die at the hands of the Exequias. There's more than one way to be cruel than to kill people - worse ways, even.Its not unheard of to do something like that to promote "innocence". Kishimoto did it with the Kyuubi time and again when Naruto started to feel hate and such, and then Minato or whoever pops up and "Oh, you're fixed." it's just not as odd for Naruto as it is with Ichigo. And Hichigo is a conscious entity. They are one and the same, but Hichigo COULD tale over the body, and run around free. It's like multiple personalitis at war, they share the body and existence, but it is 2 (3 for Ichigo) in 1. I'll give you the intent to kill Ulquiorra, but then ame the refusal to kill him. My argument was tha tthe was dead, not alive. He's dead and gone. He was left bleeding to death in the sand afer Ivhigo roughed him up, and the Nnoitra slaved him. See, you just can't damn read, at all. He COULD have killed Dordonii, he SHOULD have killed Dordonii. He, instead, hated him, then let Nel heal him. I mean, he bounced between fighting and healing without a second thought, when Dordonii was his enemy. And what logical reason is this? All I see is plot device and "he's a good guy". =\ Oh, and those kissing up to Umbra, I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm saying Kubo is trying to make it a form of innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakashi Hatake Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 If so, it's a twisted forme of innocence. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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